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Alda: A music programming language

daveyarwood.github.io

21–30 of 77 posts

Re: Alda: A music programming language

#21
post #15
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also think Clojure is a great fit. I've had some really good results with sample-based algorithmic composition, so I'm really looking forward to this: "In the near future, Alda’s scope will be expanded to include sounds synthesized from basic waveforms, samples loaded from sound files, and perhaps other forms of synthesis."

Wonder if VST support is a possibility. Also things like automation, for changing parameters like volume over time. It's easy to see how a programming language can be a good fit for notating certain kinds of music and allowing playback of it. Seems to me like the challenge is to go beyond lining things up neatly to a grid and introducing any kind of "looseness" to the music. Edit: Then again, people do great stuff wi…

Definitely!

Though you may already know, aligning notes to exact subdivisions of the beat is called quantization.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantization_%28music%29

Quantized music feels noticeably less organic and lively, to me at least. Audio sequencers like Linux's Hydrogen give you the capability to mess with "lead" and "lag", but it must be done individually for each note and so is fairly tedious.

I've used the Python module pydub along with a random number generator to set samples slightly ajar, but, while it helps, a purely random approach doesn't capture how human performers implement lead and lag.

I absolutely recommend pydub as an easy way to manipulate sound files.

https://github.com/jiaaro/pydub

Re: Alda: A music programming language

#22
post #11

This is neat, of course. Yet, being classically trained myself and a software engineer, both for 30 years, I have yet to find an alternative music notation system that would make me proclaim I would use it. When I look at a traditional score I see and hear the music in my mind pretty much instantly. There is zero cognitive load, at least at the conscious level. With any kind of text-based notation you have to read te…

> why it is our brains have evolved to be "tuned" for notation I'm not sure they are tuned--is there any reason you say this beyond personal experience? Music notation is noriously difficult to learn for most people, and many non-classical musicians avoid it entirely. Maybe it's just self-selection. Those with a natural gift for reading are likely to become classically trained musicians, and those without it are like…

I guess the OP just got used to reading notation and now thinks it's natural for him to read notation.

Re: Alda: A music programming language

#23
post #13

This is neat, of course. Yet, being classically trained myself and a software engineer, both for 30 years, I have yet to find an alternative music notation system that would make me proclaim I would use it. When I look at a traditional score I see and hear the music in my mind pretty much instantly. There is zero cognitive load, at least at the conscious level. With any kind of text-based notation you have to read te…

> This is neat, of course. Yet, being classically trained myself and a software engineer, both for 30 years, I have yet to find an alternative music notation system that would make me proclaim I would use it. Emm, this is not an "alternative music notation system" meant for musicians to read music in. It's an entry method for writing MIDI (and therefore alo getting standard notation output). > Someone more qualified…

>It's an entry method for writing MIDI.

I'd suggest no one needs yet another text-to-MIDI system.

There are plenty of existing methods that do the job just fine - from live recording, to step entry, to any of the hundred or so text-based systems that have been (re)invented since the 1950s. (And which hardly anyone uses, because for most people - even most programmers - ASCII turns out to be a really clumsy and difficult way to write a non-trivial score.)

Re: Alda: A music programming language

#24
I've had a lot of experience with various musical languages (ChucK, Csound, Supercollider, Max/MSP, PD, Faust etc.) I've even designed a few music languages for myself. For what it's worth, I did go to a music school and graduated with a bachelors degree in music, with a strong focus in computer music composition.

In the case of Alda, I'm a little underwhelmed. To be fair, it seems that the author of this software has done a good job meeting his goals. The syntax does look quite intuitive, basing it off of Lilypond syntax was a good choice IMO. I wouldn't call it a programming lanuage, and it can't do everything I want, but it seems to fit certain types of music quite well. Here is my big issue:

>In the near future, Alda’s scope will be expanded to include sounds synthesized from basic waveforms, samples loaded from sound files, and perhaps other forms of synthesis.

I don't want to say Alda sounds "bad", because soundfonts, samples, and basic waveforms have their place for certain styles of music, but it is certainly quite limiting. Considering that there are massive books written about the "perhaps other forms of synthesis", it doesn't seem like sound itself to be too big a focus.

From what I'm reading, Alda is essentially a MIDI file generator. It doesn't actually produce music, rather, it sends MIDI instructions for how to play music somewhere and leaves it up some other program to make the sounds. All of the other music languages I've mentioned can actually make music internally.

Have you ever considered using other music languages with Alda. Overtone is just Supercollider + Clojure, so I'm sure you do something similar. I imagine it would be pretty trivial to get Alda to write a Csound score, since it's basically just a text table. PD has libpd, which I've had limited success with. I might as well mention my project Soundpipe as a possible DSP engine as well: www.github.com/PaulBatchelor/Soundpipe.git

Re: Alda: A music programming language

#25
post #13

This is neat, of course. Yet, being classically trained myself and a software engineer, both for 30 years, I have yet to find an alternative music notation system that would make me proclaim I would use it. When I look at a traditional score I see and hear the music in my mind pretty much instantly. There is zero cognitive load, at least at the conscious level. With any kind of text-based notation you have to read te…

> This is neat, of course. Yet, being classically trained myself and a software engineer, both for 30 years, I have yet to find an alternative music notation system that would make me proclaim I would use it. Emm, this is not an "alternative music notation system" meant for musicians to read music in. It's an entry method for writing MIDI (and therefore alo getting standard notation output). > Someone more qualified…

Sorry, I think you missed all my points and misconstrued others.

> It's an entry method for writing MIDI (and therefore alo getting standard notation output).

Therefore it is music notation. Also, remember that I am not criticizing the work or the author. I think it's great. I simply fail to see how someone knowledgeable enough to compose music --particularly for multiple instruments-- might use this. That's why I asked the author about the use case.

Sometimes we create solutions for non-existing problems. I've done that myself lots of times.

For example, one of the cases discussed in the article is classical music. I cannot imagine anyone capable of creating scores for orchestras (or even single instruments) not having years of traditional musical training, which would include reading and writing conventional scores.

In other words, for writing anything other than repetitive game music that sounds like bubble gum you have to have years of training and experience with one or more instruments. And that, invariably, implies learning music traditionally.

Yes, there are lots of amazingly gifted musicians who can't read traditional scores. I would venture to guess these people think differently and that they also have a number of limitations because of their unconventional path in music. Yes, there are corner cases where their brain simply seems to be wired for music (cases like autistic kids). Yet, from my experience, the vast majority of self-taught musicians (I'll venture to say 99%) hit very hard walls that prevent them from developing musically and technically.

I had to spend years developing technique and musicianship on classical guitar before being able to approach music at a certain level. This meant years of serious discipline playing scales and all sorts of didactic pieces and exercises to develop the hands, timing, musical sensibilities, etc.

Reading notation is a SMALL part of what it takes to become a musician and a composer. It's something that happens over the years as you become those things. Just like a Chinese kid becoming good at reading and writing something that to most outsiders seems impenetrable.

> Tons of self-taught musicians can't handle it

That's only because self taught musicians, for whatever reason, do not put in the effort to learn the notation. It isn't because it is difficult or impossible to learn. You don't have to be gifted or have a special trait to be able to learn or "handle it".

There's nothing wrong with being self-taught. Some people want to screw around with music and instruments. And that's great. From that to say that these people are going to write scores and need a tool they can use without having to learn traditional musical notation is a huge stretch. The overwhelming majority of self-taught musicians amount to nothing and are far from being able to compose music. This is not a put-down. This is reality. There's a lot more to becoming a musician than notation. Notation, as I said above, is a minuscule part of it (yet very important).

The idea that there are people out there who "can't handle it" is preposterous. Want proof? Chinese population: 1.3 billion; India: 1.2 billion; Pakistan: 200 million; Arab speaking: 400 million; I could go on.

Between those countries/cultures alone you have about three billion people who learn, read and use languages far more complex than, say, English, Spanish, French or German. They are taught early on and even little kids have no problem learning. In languages like Mandarin they associate tones, intonation, volume, dynamics and rhythm with the symbols, combinations of symbols and even usage context.

No, claiming that self taught musicians can't handle traditional music notation is just a cop-out. Nothing other than effort prevents them from learning. It really isn't that hard at all. I suppose there could be corner cases here and there, but that's not the norm.

> Besides, the brain doesn't "evolve" in the Darwinian sense in the span of mere centuries that we have had our modern music notation.

You completely missed my point here and distorted what I said.

I did not say that our brains evolved JUST to read musical notation in a few hundred years. That would be silly. My proposal is that the evolution of our brain over millions of years provides us with unique image recognition, pattern matching and association capabilities --that evolved for other reasons, not for music-- that happen to result in us being really good at symbolic notation.

Think of a road sign indicating a left or right turn coming up. Once you learn the meaning you don't even think about it. You see the sign, pattern match, connect it with meaning and make decisions --instantly. We didn't evolve our brains in the last 100 years to recognize street signs, but we did evolve a set of capabilities --perhaps to detect predators, food, whatever-- that make us really good at communicating and receiving meaning from symbols.

Re: Alda: A music programming language

#26
This is pretty neat. But I found it quickly getting very hard to read towards the bottom.

I feel if there's a computer interpreting some sort of language, that it should have a built in notion of the circle of fifths -- why should I give the computer absolute notes, when everything in music is so relative. Maybe viewing the notes in terms of do,re,mi would make sense, within the context of being in some key; then jumping to another key (like the dominant, or the minor version of the current key). Computers make computation cheap, which means it should be easy to think in terms of abstractions (that's how musicians think about music, then unwind those abstractions into absolute notes when writing the music down).

But then I look at the current syntax, how it attempts to be extremely compact, and worry that it won't be possible to extend to better abstractions very well.

Re: Alda: A music programming language

#27
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is neat, of course. Yet, being classically trained myself and a software engineer, both for 30 years, I have yet to find an alternative music notation system that would make me proclaim I would use it. Emm, this is not an "alternative music notation system" meant for musicians to read music in. It's an entry method for writing MIDI (and therefore alo getting standard notation output). > Someone more qualified…

Sorry, I think you missed all my points and misconstrued others. > It's an entry method for writing MIDI (and therefore alo getting standard notation output). Therefore it is music notation. Also, remember that I am not criticizing the work or the author. I think it's great. I simply fail to see how someone knowledgeable enough to compose music --particularly for multiple instruments-- might use this. That's why I as…

Something I've read about Irish folk music, is that putting it into classical notation is awkward. It's precise about what should be flexible, and lacks notation for things that are important. Somebody could play it precisely and professionally off a sheet and get it wrong.

Re: Alda: A music programming language

#28
post #24

I've had a lot of experience with various musical languages (ChucK, Csound, Supercollider, Max/MSP, PD, Faust etc.) I've even designed a few music languages for myself. For what it's worth, I did go to a music school and graduated with a bachelors degree in music, with a strong focus in computer music composition. In the case of Alda, I'm a little underwhelmed. To be fair, it seems that the author of this software ha…

I've done a lot with Pd and enjoyed the noise-making aspects. I find the composition orientation of Alda appealing, but I would want to be able to pipe in sound from something like a Pd. Any of the above inhabit this middle zone?

I particularly like the idea of visual flow programming for synthesis and markup with control flow for composition.

Re: Alda: A music programming language

#30
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is neat, of course. Yet, being classically trained myself and a software engineer, both for 30 years, I have yet to find an alternative music notation system that would make me proclaim I would use it. Emm, this is not an "alternative music notation system" meant for musicians to read music in. It's an entry method for writing MIDI (and therefore alo getting standard notation output). > Someone more qualified…

Sorry, I think you missed all my points and misconstrued others. > It's an entry method for writing MIDI (and therefore alo getting standard notation output). Therefore it is music notation. Also, remember that I am not criticizing the work or the author. I think it's great. I simply fail to see how someone knowledgeable enough to compose music --particularly for multiple instruments-- might use this. That's why I as…

What an incredibly elitist and dismissive view of music. You are aware that there are entire musical traditions that do not employ notation, right?

You're excluding tons of music outside of 12 tone temperament, not to mention plenty of electronic, jazz, and experimental music.

And you're idea of Mandarin being more complex than English, French, German, etc... I would challenge you to find a single linguist who agrees with that. I for one do not.

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