Academics are being hoodwinked into writing books nobody can buy • Hacker News Board

Re: Academics are being hoodwinked into writing books nobody can buy

#31

Post by coliveira » Sun, Sep 06, 2015, 1:00 PM UTC

datashovel wrote: post #30

patio11 wrote: post #3

Academics spend years writing books nobody will buy. That's practically the definition of academic writing. They go into incredible amount of depths for a very, very niche audience: other academics interested in, e.g., the experience of women in Japanese detective novels of the 19th century. (n.b. Actually a book, assuming I am remembering all the details correctly. An advisor spent years on it.) This is exactly the…

So if I understand correctly, we should depend on a corporation to decide where these books end up and who has access to them? It sounds like a terrible idea to me. Not all great thinkers / researchers / inventors end up being University professors. If it doesn't end up being a book or article or in some way shape or form in writing, that the professor wants anxiously for every human in the world to read about, then…

The mistake here is that professors don't write for "every human in the world". They write specifically for a small number of people who are well versed in the research topic they work on. While it is possible that this information might be useful to others, this will usually happen as a consequence, not as the primary goal.

Re: Academics are being hoodwinked into writing books nobody can buy

#32

Post by n0us » Sun, Sep 06, 2015, 1:07 PM UTC

One of the best emails I've received in a while was from the UVA alumni association letting me know that I would retain library access, including access to JSTOR, because there is no way I could afford to outright purchase everything I want to read.

Re: Academics are being hoodwinked into writing books nobody can buy

#33

Post by librvf » Sun, Sep 06, 2015, 1:07 PM UTC

These may sound like stories of concern to academics alone. But the problem is this: much of the time that goes into writing these books is made possible through taxpayers’ money. And who buys these books? Well, university libraries – and they, too, are paid for by taxpayers. Meanwhile, the books are not available for taxpayers to read – unless they have a university library card.

In the US, taxpayers are said to be spending $139bn a year on research, and in the UK, £4.7bn. Too much of that money is disappearing into big pockets.

What is this garbage? Why not let an interesting article about a specific problem (academic publishing scams) stand on its own? Why pour on sensationalized, over-simplified, misleading "context?"

According to to study where those numbers came from, the $139bn the federal government spends on "research" is a part of a larger pool of "funding for research" that includes non-government sources, which is like $450bn. Universities (not just the libraries) are getting about $60bn from the big pool.

In other words: the study, at least the results referenced by The Guardian article, does not say ANYTHING about the flow of money from taxpayer wallets to university libraries. Based on the evidence presented, the fraction of university library funding from taxpayer dollars could be anywhere from 0% to 100%. This is blatant dishonesty from The Guardian.

http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/infbrief/nsf14307

Oh and one more thing: The "good" part of the article is written by an anonymous source with no verifiable facts (no publisher names, no book names). I have no real reason to dispute its authenticity, the idea certainly seems plausible, but I can not verify any of the claims being made without basically starting my own study from scratch.

Re: Academics are being hoodwinked into writing books nobody can buy

#34

Post by notahacker » Sun, Sep 06, 2015, 1:14 PM UTC

garbal wrote: post #27

patio11 wrote: post #3

Academics spend years writing books nobody will buy. That's practically the definition of academic writing. They go into incredible amount of depths for a very, very niche audience: other academics interested in, e.g., the experience of women in Japanese detective novels of the 19th century. (n.b. Actually a book, assuming I am remembering all the details correctly. An advisor spent years on it.) This is exactly the…

As an academic I check out and buy super specialized books all the time. $150 is not too expensive if it can save me a few hours of work by summarizing an esoteric topic, which frequently is the case. The publisher doesn't matter, just the reputation of the author. This is not beach reading, it is an input to an industrial process.

It's weird, because HN is usually the first place to downvote people into oblivion for complaining about how outrageous it is that B2B App X costs $15 per month when the majority of software aimed at consumers now sells for 99 cents or is given away for free.

B2B App X generally doesn't have the unique content or extremely niche audience of the hardback, heavily revised version of one's Phd thesis either.

Re: Academics are being hoodwinked into writing books nobody can buy

#35

Post by librvf » Sun, Sep 06, 2015, 1:21 PM UTC

hellofunk wrote: post #5

This article could easily be expanded to include software developers as well as academics. I've seen several excellent developers with strong reputations contributing to the open source community get "hoodwinked" into rushing out shallow books for companies like Apress. I've seen other developers also get sucked into the game, only to see less income from the work in one year as you'd need to buy a modest used car --…

> This article could easily be expanded to include software developers as well as academics

companies like Apress

Your 1-paragraph HN comment has more verifiable (relevant) facts than the entire article linked. The article doesn't need to be expanded, a different one needs to be written by someone willing to be more specific.

Re: Academics are being hoodwinked into writing books nobody can buy

#36

Post by datashovel » Sun, Sep 06, 2015, 1:27 PM UTC

coliveira wrote: post #31

datashovel wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if I understand correctly, we should depend on a corporation to decide where these books end up and who has access to them? It sounds like a terrible idea to me. Not all great thinkers / researchers / inventors end up being University professors. If it doesn't end up being a book or article or in some way shape or form in writing, that the professor wants anxiously for every human in the world to read about, then…

The mistake here is that professors don't write for "every human in the world". They write specifically for a small number of people who are well versed in the research topic they work on. While it is possible that this information might be useful to others, this will usually happen as a consequence, not as the primary goal.

Yes, that is correct. But it's not to say that it's not what the professor would like. In the age of the internet (as is mentioned in the article) it seems pointless that in order for a specialist in my field to read my "magnum opus" you must fly out to some obscure state University and hope that (a) the University will allow them to check out the book being that they're not a member of that University, and (b) they think it's important enough to do so.

Perhaps it was missed, but the article was written by a professor. The point isn't that all humans in the world would be able to comprehend (or even care) about the contents of the book. The point is that they should have access to it, and the professor (who supposedly cares deeply about what he/she studies / writes about) should want all humans in the world to have easy access to it). Something that is easy to achieve, but apparently not happening.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srinivasa_Ramanujan

Imagine where academics could be if, for example, people like Ramanujan had access early in their career to all of the most important ideas in their field of interest.

The more obscure an idea or field of study, the harder it's going to be to get it into the right hands.

Re: Academics are being hoodwinked into writing books nobody can buy

#37

Post by librvf » Sun, Sep 06, 2015, 1:31 PM UTC

harry8 wrote: post #23

brohoolio wrote: post #12

The article states people are getting hoodwinked but then goes on to blame academics. "So why don’t academics simply stay away from the greedy publishers? The only answer I can think of is vanity." Or that the publishers are misrepresenting how the books might sell.

Why didn't the author name the publisher? So librarians, unfamiliar with esoteric fields can put a black mark next to that publisher's name and only buy from that publisher if requested or approved by an academic in that field. Surely the reputation damage that should be inflicted would stop such practises if they exist . But we have a claim with no evidence at this point.

I agree, the original article doesn't hold up well under scrutiny. Anonymous source and no verifiable, relevant facts-- even facts that should be easy to obtain.

Re: Academics are being hoodwinked into writing books nobody can buy

#38

Post by jordanpg » Sun, Sep 06, 2015, 1:33 PM UTC

librvf wrote: post #33

These may sound like stories of concern to academics alone. But the problem is this: much of the time that goes into writing these books is made possible through taxpayers’ money. And who buys these books? Well, university libraries – and they, too, are paid for by taxpayers. Meanwhile, the books are not available for taxpayers to read – unless they have a university library card. In the US, taxpayers are said to be…

Wow -- apparently The Guardian actually has a recurring section called "Academics Anonymous"??? That seems like an interesting story in its own right.

Well done pointing this out. This supposed academic, is doing palpable damage to his/her own industry.

This is the kind of article we can expect to be quoted by the right-wing crazies who want to shut down all universities.

Re: Academics are being hoodwinked into writing books nobody can buy

#39

Post by dalke » Sun, Sep 06, 2015, 1:33 PM UTC

1971genocide wrote: post #21

DrNuke wrote: post #20

Broadly speaking, cheap e-books from non-stellar academics are an incredible amount of data leaked for free: top peer-reviewed journals are not cheap at all and relevant conferences proceedings are often run on a pay-for-view scheme. The non-stellar academic from Windy Hill University, Nowhere, will sell a good summary of his/her field and an up to date literature review for less than $20. Bargain.

I can tell you are not a millennial student or else you wont have that view. We are made to buy extremely expensive books and waste time reading crap books all the time. The best books in my field were written randomly over the last 300 years. I think ALL information should be free in the digital age. its the maximum rate of efficiency. There are 6 billion people in the world without a proper high class uni education…

"we are made to buy extremely expensive books"

One of the thing about young people is they rarely have a sense of history. The relevant question is, how does that compare to, say, a Gen X student? We have plenty of archival evidence for that. One such is this newspaper article from 1988, titled "Students pay a high price for college textbooks" at https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1298&dat=19881110&id=... . It starts off "The price of textbooks will make you cry."

The end of the first column continues "For the last 50 to 60 years students said exactly the same thing about book prices." Yes, Baby Boomers made the same complaint you just did.

The larger context is that starting in the 1980s cultural views shifted so that college should be seen as prerequisite job training, and not as a way to expand the mind, understand the world, and better oneself. Thus, colleges could justify price hikes by saying it would lead to a better jobs in the future, which could pay off the increased debt. Where Boomers could work for the summer to pay off a year of school, modern students must pay back loans for the next decade.

But that has relatively little to do with the price of textbooks. Even if the textbooks were free, it would only mean the colleges would hike the prices elsewhere to maximize profit extraction.

Re: Academics are being hoodwinked into writing books nobody can buy

#40

Post by librvf » Sun, Sep 06, 2015, 1:35 PM UTC

jakobegger wrote: post #15

patio11 wrote: post #3

Academics spend years writing books nobody will buy. That's practically the definition of academic writing. They go into incredible amount of depths for a very, very niche audience: other academics interested in, e.g., the experience of women in Japanese detective novels of the 19th century. (n.b. Actually a book, assuming I am remembering all the details correctly. An advisor spent years on it.) This is exactly the…

I think you drastically overestimate the quality of the books this article talks about. These publishers will publish any rubbish you give them just to profit from selling to librarians who do not understand enough of the subject matter to know they are being scammed. I've been contacted on Facebook by these scam publishers, inquiring if I'd like to publish some of my university essays. There are plenty of alternativ…

> I've been contacted on Facebook by these scam publishers

Which publishers? If they are scams they should be exposed.

The linked article included no verifiable details.