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How JetBrains Lost Years of Customer Loyalty in Just a Few Hours

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Re: How JetBrains Lost Years of Customer Loyalty in Just a Few Hours

#461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that example, you have someone working regularly enough in PHP, Python and .Net (Resharper) to appreciate the JetBrains tools. I'm sure it happens, but it doesn't seem to be the usual case to me. edit But looking at the pricing page ( https://www.jetbrains.com/toolbox/ ), a pure C# dev could just get "ReSharper Ultimate" for £79 Per year, or "ReSharper" for £71 per year, which I think is not much different from th…

I code php, java, python regularly. My team of two code php and java regularly and a little python. We have a small resource starved team. May not be normal but it is for us.

All of those languages are already covered by IntelliJ Ultimate. So your net cost in this new scheme is roughly the same as before, except if you don't renew your IDE stops working.

Re: How JetBrains Lost Years of Customer Loyalty in Just a Few Hours

#462
post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're complaining about bugs you haven't encountered yet. If the software simply defaulted to working when it couldn't contact a licensing server, would that resolve things?

That would be a pretty weak DRM implementation, and unlikely to be used in the real world. (Or... How many people pay for WinRAR?)

Licensing servers are not DRM.

Having the tool ping a server every week doesn't make the tool any harder to crack, and cracked versions obviously don't ping the server, so there's no reason whatever to be draconian about what happens when the check doesn't go through.

At least that's the approach they took at Adobe. IIRC the tool worked normally for up to a month without pinging the server, and after that showed warnings but kept working for a while. The times may have changed but idea was to err as far as possible on the side of lenience, because anyone using a version that pings the server is by definition a paying customer and not a pirate.

Re: How JetBrains Lost Years of Customer Loyalty in Just a Few Hours

#463
Intellij has no choice but to do this. Otherwise they lose revenue.

They have mature software products and people are not going to renew the license every year for a minor update. Most of their products are so mature that you can buy them once and never look back.

So how do they make up for this one time sale? Switch to a subscription model and convince users it's in their best interest.

Frankly, I don't care about paying money every month; IntelliJ is worth the price. However, I never update software unless there is a major bug or major features. Updating software is always a gamble and if you customize it, it often requires additional work (deprecated plugins, invalid keymap, new bugs etc.)

I hope they get this right and find the right business model to stay afloat without ruining the relationship they have with their customers.

Re: How JetBrains Lost Years of Customer Loyalty in Just a Few Hours

#464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they try to achieve a relatively modest increase Looking at their (current) pricing model for this, it seems like a drive for more predictable income, instead of additional profit. The ability to depend on getting X dollars per month makes it a lot easier to hire employees on, and justify working on the products. And for many folks, Jetbrains will be getting less money out of them, since they're offering quite a de…

Anybody who fears being unable to pay a $20 monthly bill is very unlikely to have paid $200 up front for the tool in the first place. I avoid subscription software not because of the price, but because if I stop paying or the company goes out of business the software stops working. Say I completely change industries, then ten years later I want to go back and look at my old projects. If I was using a subscription (ID…

For some proprietary formats (such as Microsoft Word, PDFs, or photoshop PSD files), this is absolutely the case. However, when it comes to code, the format is _unicode text_. There's very little danger of losing your code to the sands of time because a company whose product you used to write that _unicode text_ went out of business.

Of course, businesses are realizing danger and are publishing specs to their proprietary file formats as well, so even in 50 years someone can re-create a document which would have previously been lost. For example, https://www.adobe.com/devnet-apps/photoshop/fileformatashtml...

Re: How JetBrains Lost Years of Customer Loyalty in Just a Few Hours

#465

I was with Adobe during their change (as a tech evangelist meeting a lot of users), and watched it play out from both directions. And setting aside questions of pricing, one thing people overlook is that a subscription plan is a much, much better way to make software than selling annual or biannual updates. The problem is that for a mature product, yearly sales cycles create a toxic incentive to focus engineering tim…

> Yearly sales cycles create a toxic incentive to focus engineering time on flashy demo-friendly features I understand that argument, but what incentive does DRM with a killswitch create for the software company, if its customers must pay in order to keep the product running at all? Might it not create different perverse incentives, for example trying to close the ecosystem in order to make a switch a painful experie…

Very fair point, and believe me I heard it from a lot of users. My answer is (was), the pressure to improve has always been from competitors, and that doesn't change under a subscription model. I know people tend to see Photoshop as an endless monopoly, but actually tons of rivals pop up and get users in significant numbers (e.g. Sketch), and they do it by being lightweight and flexible. And if Photoshop just kept being huge and adding on ten more huge features per year it would inevitably become a relic, if not by losing old users then definitely by failing to attract new ones.

Not to dismiss your point though - it's absolutely possible that the company gets complacent and stops innovating and collects rent. I just don't think anything really stops people from ditching Adobe if that happens. In this sense I think people overestimate the tools' intrinsic value and underestimate the value of the updates each year. That is, I like Photoshop better than its competitors today, and I felt the same way three years ago, but between a three year-old version of PS and its competitors today I'd switch in a second, and I think many others would too. In other words, the only reason PS maintains its monopoly-like dominance is that it's kept innovating, and if one side of that equation changes the other will too.

With that said, playing devil's advocate against myself, one big argument against what I'm saying here is lock-in from file formats like PSD - if people subscribe and make PSD files, the risk of losing work if they switched tools removes some of the pressure on Adobe to innovate. At the time of the CC switch Adobe said they would come out with some way to make sure people don't get locked out of their files, but I don't know if anything happened with that or not. A lot of tools support PSD these days so maybe it's not a hot issue but I think it's worth keeping in mind.

Sorry to go to such length but I hope that answers your question.

Re: How JetBrains Lost Years of Customer Loyalty in Just a Few Hours

#466
post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. You see, to me you are wasting our time and money if you do not realize that the time devoted to code entry is insignificant when compared to other aspects of a non-trivial project. It's like putting $300 racing tires on a Toyota Sienna minivan. You can quote all kinds of skid-pad numbers and amazing high speed capabilities, yet you'd be focusing on the wrong problem. You can go much faster by getting a…

Of course there's much more to software engineering than entering and editing text, and you'll need to make a judgment call based on your priorities. I do more than web development, so I don't think your "web dev bias" applies to me. I merely find disagree with your absolutism: > It is an utter waste of time compared to point-click-go-go-go. If you don't have free time to devote to learning an editor, then that's fin…

> I'm not sure why you keep mentioning web development.

Only because I think it is fair to say that a large portion of HN's members are in web development rather than, say, robotics and aerospace which is a significant portion of what we do.

> But yes, if most of your time is spent doing R&D, then you won't benefit much from improving your engineering tools.

Let me add a twist to this, only because I think it got lost somewhere.

I am not opposed to better tools. I simply want to pay for them and let others who's business it is to focus on making better tools create them for me. My job isn't to become an expert on a code editor's source code or our FEA tool's code base. My job is to use these tools and others to develop the products our clients want us to develop.

So, yeah, I will gladly pay --and we do pay tens of thousands of dollars per year-- for the right tools, with the right performance, the right support and the right feature set. If we need something special and it can be done with some easy scripting, sure, absolutely. Otherwise I prefer to communicate needs to our vendors and hope they see the need to address these pain points.

We've had at least half a dozen cases of software providers sending members of their development team to our office to spend time learning about issues we found and how to fix them. One of them was a team of software developers from India that made the trip to try and figure out why their CAM software was crashing end-mills on our Haas vertical machining centers and churning aluminum like it was butter with the 20 HP spindles.

Our mission was to make parts. We made that happen one way or the other. It took them --while being fully versed in their own code-base-- a week to find the problem and another month to fix it and go through regression testing. It probably would have taken us three to six months to do the same thing (had it been open source) while completely deviating from our core mission.

On another occasion we devoted three months to write this application that automated component creation for an EDA tool we were using. The tool had shortcomings. Thankfully it had an API that, of all things, could be accessed through Visual Basic. We talked about it and decided to fix it by creating an external tool in VB.

It took one engineer three months of total dedication to the cause to write the code and produce a working tool. And it was great. What used to take three hours could now be done in 30 minutes.

That seemed like an example of resources and time well used. Except, as the EDA tool company issued updates our tool would break and we very quickly found ourselves chasing our tails constantly fixing our code. It was the old "when you are up to your ass in alligators" story.

Six months later we decided it was a far better to jettison the EDA tool and buy a better tool instead. That was the right decision. We should have made that decision nine months earlier rather than completely deviate from our core business to fix someone else's problems.

I have more stories like that one. I am not saying what I say to be difficult, I have the scars to prove which business and engineering decisions are right and wrong, not in absolute terms, of course, but in the context of the task at hand.

Re: How JetBrains Lost Years of Customer Loyalty in Just a Few Hours

#467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they expect to paid well; they should make software worth buying and price it properly. In the subscription model, they're still (likely) under-pricing but now they don't have to keep with features and innovations -- because if they do nothing, and you don't pay, you lose access to everything you had before.

>they should make software worth buying and price it properly They do make software worth buying, and I have already stated that I believe it is priced properly NOW. Wrong. You don't lose access to your files, your code, your data. You only lose access to the IDE. If they stop innovating, the great thing about this model is that you can leave immediately to another competitor that likely is copying all their feature.

How is this a defense of this model from the customers perspective? In the old pricing model, if they stop innovating I can just stop paying for it and stay with the version I have. This is good for me. And I have actually done this -- I own PHPStorm and while I've bought a yearly upgrades in the past this last year I did not. I'm not doing as much PHP work and most of my PHP work is legacy. Thankfully I own PHPStorm instead of renting it for almost the same price.

With this new model, I wouldn't be happily moving to another competitor, I'd be forced into it immediately. I would paying nearly the same amount but instead I don't own anything.

Re: How JetBrains Lost Years of Customer Loyalty in Just a Few Hours

#468

At this I'd like to remind folks that Emacs has been around for over 3 decades and isn't going anywhere. Don't trust a single company with your most essential tools.

That's why I prefer open source tools.

JetBrains IDEA Community Edition IDE is open source, someone should fork it and add the various language plugins (many of them are open source too).

Re: How JetBrains Lost Years of Customer Loyalty in Just a Few Hours

#469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the tool I rely on Then don't stop paying for it. Meanwhile, its not like they are holding your data hostage. Apart from your customized settings in their IDE you can always access your project files with another IDE or editor.

Is it written in stone, that Jetbrains and their tools will still exist in a few years? And that the then current version will be able to open my ancient project files?

Not really, but our benevolent God has ordained that, especially if it becomes abandonware, versions without license check will be available on plenty of internet sites.

Re: How JetBrains Lost Years of Customer Loyalty in Just a Few Hours

#470
post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Half the reason I haven't updated is that JetBrains hasn't been polishing. I'd pay for that, happily, but bugs sit unfixed for years while JetBrains rolls out entirely new (and similarly buggy) IDEs.

I wonder if that's part of the reason to move to subscription? To improve funding for that area? If you operate on perpetual licenses you have to support that software and find a way to get people to purchase again - via new features etc etc

If you operate on subscription licenses you don't have to do anything at all. There's no need to improve the software in less tangible ways or provide new features since people will have pay for what they current have regardless.

This is a great model for Jetbrains but it's a poor model for consumers.

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