Procedural Dungeon Generation Algorithm • Hacker News Board

Re: Procedural Dungeon Generation Algorithm

#21

Post by colechristensen » Fri, Sep 04, 2015, 10:15 PM UTC

ajross wrote: post #4

smlacy wrote: post #2

I've seen algorithms that produce results similar to this before, and I find them lacking in any sort of feeling of purposeful design. Dungeons are (in theory) built by intelligent people for a reason. There needs to be distinct working, eating, socializing, farming areas. There needs to be wider or thinner pathways between areas based on flow of people & goods. A good starting place to look for amazing looking dunge…

> Dungeons are (in theory) built by intelligent people for a reason. Well, in the make believe universes you frequent anyway. Others have different tastes. I mean, in the realm of software there's a whole genre of these things going back to the original Rogue which never pretended to have any purpose at all. And digging even farther back you'll find a dice-driven (and, relative to modern standards, really terrible) r…

>not exactly the right aesthetic to chase

I'd say not only. A procedural generator that took account of architecture and reason could probably make a more interesting game, not everything needs to point towards that goal, but it'd be neat if some did.

I'm bothered more with many first person shooters more which design environments basically just as long kinked up hallways you have to walk through while pretending to be in a place supposably designed with a purpose in mind.

Re: Procedural Dungeon Generation Algorithm

#22

Post by andrepd » Fri, Sep 04, 2015, 10:35 PM UTC

smlacy wrote: post #2

I've seen algorithms that produce results similar to this before, and I find them lacking in any sort of feeling of purposeful design. Dungeons are (in theory) built by intelligent people for a reason. There needs to be distinct working, eating, socializing, farming areas. There needs to be wider or thinner pathways between areas based on flow of people & goods. A good starting place to look for amazing looking dunge…

"Dungeon" is a term in game design to refer to a self contained challenge space, which can be realized in many different ways. It does not necessarily mean "dungeon" as in a real life dungeon or catacomb. It can be an actual human built space, in which case you are right, or it can be a Zelda dungeon, in which there is an overarching theme but not necessarily a sense of verisimilitude, or it can be such a simple and abstracted dungeon such as in Nethack or whatever, in which case those concerns are meaningless.

Re: Procedural Dungeon Generation Algorithm

#23

Post by sago » Fri, Sep 04, 2015, 10:48 PM UTC

smlacy wrote: post #2

I've seen algorithms that produce results similar to this before, and I find them lacking in any sort of feeling of purposeful design. Dungeons are (in theory) built by intelligent people for a reason. There needs to be distinct working, eating, socializing, farming areas. There needs to be wider or thinner pathways between areas based on flow of people & goods. A good starting place to look for amazing looking dunge…

I agree, though the issue, I think, is wider than 'purposeful' design. The dungeon could be a range of things, but this one doesn't look like anything except an 'algorithmic dungeon'. Is it:

a) an underground city (your analysis is spot on, doesn't look like that)

b) a cave system

c) a mine

d) a prison

e) the lair of some non-intelligent species

f) a fortress to protect something

Another option is that they're supposed to be 'abstract challenge spaces' (as another commenter claims), but roguelikes aren't intentionally abstract: they attempt verisimilitude on lots of levels. Nethack in particular has a very detailed naive physics with all kinds of internal logic.

Brogue does its natural caves pretty well, I think. Minecraft seems to, and places its seams of minerals reasonably (neither are perfect, but they're clearly trying).

But this kind of dungeon generator? We're nearly 20 years after Crimes Against Mimesis [1] was written, and this feels like a big step backwards.

---

[1] http://www.reocities.com/aetus_kane/writing/cam.html

Re: Procedural Dungeon Generation Algorithm

#24

Post by goldfeld » Fri, Sep 04, 2015, 10:58 PM UTC

douche wrote: post #8

smlacy wrote: post #2

I've seen algorithms that produce results similar to this before, and I find them lacking in any sort of feeling of purposeful design. Dungeons are (in theory) built by intelligent people for a reason. There needs to be distinct working, eating, socializing, farming areas. There needs to be wider or thinner pathways between areas based on flow of people & goods. A good starting place to look for amazing looking dunge…

Dungeons as portrayed in every video game ever are a fantastic concept. It's not like there are actually anything like real dungeons outside of our imaginations (digging through rock is hard). The closest real analogues would probably be cave systems, like Carlsbad Caverns or Mammoth Cave, which are formed by irregular natural processes.

The Parisian underground system?

Re: Procedural Dungeon Generation Algorithm

#25

Post by archimedespi » Fri, Sep 04, 2015, 11:38 PM UTC

karl_gluck wrote: post #11

If anyone's interested, there is a Reddit post explaining this and an interactive demo from 2 years ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/gamedev/comments/1dlwc4/procedural_... http://tinykeep.com/dungen/

http://tinykeep.com/dungen/ _was_ the source of the figures in the article, AFAIK.

Re: Procedural Dungeon Generation Algorithm

#26

Post by Balgair » Fri, Sep 04, 2015, 11:50 PM UTC

smlacy wrote: post #2

I've seen algorithms that produce results similar to this before, and I find them lacking in any sort of feeling of purposeful design. Dungeons are (in theory) built by intelligent people for a reason. There needs to be distinct working, eating, socializing, farming areas. There needs to be wider or thinner pathways between areas based on flow of people & goods. A good starting place to look for amazing looking dunge…

Here and there. Suppose your dungeon is full of ant people or orcs, creatures that can swing picks but are essentially dumber than the rocks they are hitting. They are rule followers and have not care for design, much like an algo. You can imagine an adventurer having to infiltrate such a place to steal a mcguffin, be it an uber-bee hive, an intestinal system of the dragon that ate you, or the random water paths that carved out a cave. The creator has to give the player a good reason why the system is random.

Re: Procedural Dungeon Generation Algorithm

#27

Post by sedatk » Sat, Sep 05, 2015, 1:39 AM UTC

smlacy wrote: post #2

I've seen algorithms that produce results similar to this before, and I find them lacking in any sort of feeling of purposeful design. Dungeons are (in theory) built by intelligent people for a reason. There needs to be distinct working, eating, socializing, farming areas. There needs to be wider or thinner pathways between areas based on flow of people & goods. A good starting place to look for amazing looking dunge…

Not every dungeon is built for logistics. Think of temples, tombs, or traps for invaders.

Re: Procedural Dungeon Generation Algorithm

#28

Post by cobalt » Sat, Sep 05, 2015, 2:24 AM UTC

sedatk wrote: post #27

smlacy wrote: post #2

I've seen algorithms that produce results similar to this before, and I find them lacking in any sort of feeling of purposeful design. Dungeons are (in theory) built by intelligent people for a reason. There needs to be distinct working, eating, socializing, farming areas. There needs to be wider or thinner pathways between areas based on flow of people & goods. A good starting place to look for amazing looking dunge…

Not every dungeon is built for logistics. Think of temples, tombs, or traps for invaders.

those are still purpose built however

Re: Procedural Dungeon Generation Algorithm

#29

Post by forrestthewoods » Sat, Sep 05, 2015, 3:39 AM UTC

smlacy wrote: post #2

I've seen algorithms that produce results similar to this before, and I find them lacking in any sort of feeling of purposeful design. Dungeons are (in theory) built by intelligent people for a reason. There needs to be distinct working, eating, socializing, farming areas. There needs to be wider or thinner pathways between areas based on flow of people & goods. A good starting place to look for amazing looking dunge…

Are you shitting me? This is the worst and most worthless type of post HN has to offer. It serves no purpose other than for the commenter to try and make themselves sound smart. Given the context here that's delightfully ironic.

These dungeons are indeed built by people for a reason. Those people are game developers and the reason is video games. Diablo, Dungeon Keeper, and TinyDungeon all have dungeons crafted quite meticulously for very specific gameplay purposes. Those purposes do not involve eating or socializing. Just like the castle in Mario or Quake doesn't have eating, socializing, or farming areas.

So no. No good algorithmic design should not take those factors into account. Because they're not making a city builder or world sim.

Ugh. Ugh ugh ugh ugh.

Re: Procedural Dungeon Generation Algorithm

#30

Post by neolefty » Sat, Sep 05, 2015, 4:02 AM UTC

carlisle_ wrote: post #6

I really like the idea to just use a physics engine as a means of randomizing the layout. Smart, succinct, and easy to implement.

I delighted in this article because of its opinions about what is easy and what is hard. Physics engine: easy; of course you have one; everyone has a physics engine. Graph data structure & algos: suggests a few places to find one.

As an older programmer who is in the midst of retooling, I would assume the opposite: graphs easy, physics hard. But that's what retooling seems to be all about -- finding the new "easy" and learning it.