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Refugees Welcome

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Re: Refugees Welcome

#251

Post by Torgo »

phaer wrote: post #112
caseysoftware wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correction: Germany is believed to handle thousands per day, just as Hungary has handled more than 2k/day throughout August: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/01/trains-of-refug... As a country of 80M people (Germany), they can probably handle quite a few but there's a point when the demographic shift is going to be.. unpleasant. Most immigrants don't leave their old practices behind and in most cases, that's…

A relevant part of "this group", if you talk about refugees from Syria, actually is Christian or secular/atheist. And many of them who are even Muslim actually share a bunch of questionable views of women and gays with conservative German Christians.

I love how you knew you had to tie those beliefs back to white European Christians somehow to sell this viewpoint.

Re: Refugees Welcome

#252

Post by ryanlol »

ashleyp wrote: post #82
ryanlol wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would I be responsible for people I don't even know? If I help somebody it's out of kindness, not responsibility.

Thankyou. That's my point. Who cares? We can still help them out of kindness and unconditionally, not expecting anything back.

I don't want to pay extra taxes to help foreigners, I'll gladly donate money to charities. But the second my country started demanding I pay taxes to help refugees, all my income moved over to HK.

And no, I don't have a problem with refugees, I'm glad to help them. I have a problem with the state _forcing_ me to help them.

Re: Refugees Welcome

#253

Post by jahnu »

logfromblammo wrote: post #230
jahnu wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were hungry and homeless people when Jews and other minorities tried to flee the Nazis. Yet it is still shameful that more was not done to let those people into safer countries. The situation is not so dissimilar now. How about the homeless are helped AND we take in the millions of refugees that won't even bump the population of Europe by even 1%.

Or help the refugees now, and when they stop coming in such large numbers, continue using the same personnel and infrastructure for domestic poverty. If you're dealing with a person who owns no property and has no local ties, it hardly matters whether they walked from 500 miles away or have been sleeping in the alleyway behind you for the last year.

Right. There are probably lots of ways we could approach this but we have to accept these people cannot go home in the near term possibly ever. I come from a wealth country I want us to put our wealth to good humanitarian use at home and abroad.

Re: Refugees Welcome

#255

Post by rmxt »

jk4930 wrote: post #249
rmxt wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like you have no interest in providing a source that proves what you're saying? What do Muslims in Western countries actually believe? The concept of cultural assimilation is not a new one, but maybe it is to you.

Turkish Muslims (the majority of Muslims in Germany) were polled on the following: 1. Islam is the only true religion: 72% YES 2. There should be a Muslim majority in Germany: 46% YES 3. Want only Muslims as neighbours: 62% YES > http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article108659406/Tuer...

Fair enough, they have strong religious beliefs. So do lots of people. Why does that mean Muslims shouldn't be allowed into a given country? Why should Islam be singled out?

Also, apparently from the same survey:

"Furthermore, the willingness of Turkish migrants and their descendents to integrate into German society remains high and is climbing. Whereas 70 percent said in 2010 that they want to "absolutely and without reservations integrate into German society," the new survey found that 78 percent of respondents agreed. Similarly, whereas 59 percent said two years ago that they wanted to belong to German society, 75 percent say so now. Fully 95 percent say that all children with Turkish backgrounds should go to day care facilities so as to learn German prior to entering school."

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/survey-turks-in-...

Why does religiosity matter if the desire to integrate is there?

Re: Refugees Welcome

#256

Post by 1971genocide »

AJ007 wrote: post #179
jbssm wrote: post #130

Sincerely. I'm European, I'm from Euro zone. I walk in the streets in my country's capital at night and a see dozens of homeless hungry people just by walking a couple of Km. I just can't put my head around on why we should help the refugees before we help our own people. It just doesn't make any sense to me. We are giving millions to find houses for these refugees/migrants but we let our own live and die on the stre…

Its an attempt to avoid the long term consequences of population contraction. Most heads of state and policy pushers seek to, at minimum, ensure their country keeps its current level of global influence & power. Generally this holds true whether one is right or left, but some ideological views result in different policies. A population contraction breaks most existing economic models. You can't borrow money for infra…

Funny that you mention that.

A lot of economist and policy makers in asia when america decided to invade Afghanistan and Iraq pointed out this would eventually happen. It would be destabilizing to the Asian/Eurasian continent.

A stable Asia is terrible news for american hegemony. Central Asia is the most mineral rich place on the world, and it has been known for quite a while.

By current projections - 38% of humans will be from africa and 44% from asia in 2100.

I will be dead by then - but its terrible news if you believe in american exceptionalism.

Re: Refugees Welcome

#257

Post by rmxt »

jbssm wrote: post #247
rmxt wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like you have no interest in providing a source that proves what you're saying? What do Muslims in Western countries actually believe? The concept of cultural assimilation is not a new one, but maybe it is to you.

Source is here for instance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_Kingdom#Sh... 36% of Muslims living in UK believe if a Muslim converts to another religion they should be punished by death. But I'm sure you will find some way to nitpick out of this and tell me that these Muslims don't count. Right? Also, in case you intellectual honesty doesn't allow you to figure out, these are that Muslims that in the…

Take off the hate goggles and maybe you'll see that your sarcasm is actually true:

"these are that Muslims that in their great majority are supposed to be already westernised" == "86.4% of Muslims feel they belong in Britain, slightly more than the 85.9% of Christians"

86.4% sounds like a "great majority" (whatever that means), to me.

Re: Refugees Welcome

#258

Post by hoopd »

sp332 wrote: post #217
hoopd wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As usual, a challenge to the drive-by downvoters: answer the question. At what point have we done all we can? We "can" give ourselves as slaves to refugees to make their lives easier but I don't think that's what was meant. So A) where's the line and B) how close are we to that line?

I don't think we're really straining ourselves to handle the amount of refugees we are currently taking. That means, wherever the line is, we're not that close to it.

By what measure? If you don't know how to recognize when it's become a problem then it's not meaningful when you say you don't see a problem.

What is straining to you? I would describe our education system, our legal system, our prison system and our welfare system as all being currently "strained" so we must have different definitions.

(and to the downvoting crew, feel free to explain to me what productive disagreeement looks like, eh?)

Re: Refugees Welcome

#259

Post by chki »

michaelbuddy wrote: post #232
chki wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm from Germany and do not oppose immigration and/or hosting refugees. I agree with you that especially some people opposing immigration have a twisted worldview on these topics. However, I think your last sentence is really problematic. People have the freedom to think what they want; but I think that the fundamental values of our society (freedom, democracy, equality) have to persist and I would not accept _anybod…

you don't oppose hosting refugees, but you aren't going to have any in your home or directly funding I bet. Most people who are ok with it, or claim to be, are suspiciously not directly dealing with it. surprise surprise. Not only that but Germany is actively censoring opinions against it, including through facebook youtube and other URLs. That's the thing, people don't have the freedom tho think what they want in th…

To your first point: Yes, I'm not hosting any refugees or giving more money than I would be giving with my taxes. (But I'm currently going to school and do not earn any money, so that is not really a question to consider) But I personally think that hosting refugees is the responsibility of the state. (A climate of acceptance - in contrast to that - is important and as we have refugees in our school, this is a responsibility I take as well.) To your second point: I have never heard of such censoring but would be interested in it, if it exists.

Re: Refugees Welcome

#260

Post by powertower »

jahewson wrote: post #245
theworstshill wrote: post #182

80% of these refugees should be accepted by the US, after all, if you give weaponry to various "free" syrian armies to cause havoc in the region, you should take responsibility to take care of the humanitarian disaster that results. The other 20% - UK, France and Germany, whoever dumped weapons on that region. Unpopular as it is - the middle east was doing much better under strong dictators. They had civilization goi…

Let's at least mention the real culprits: Russia and Iran.

Culprits of what?

Russia and Iran are not trying to destabilize and take over the country - by forming, arming, and financing terrorist groups from within and from outside.

They did not bring this conflict to Syria, nor the resulting destruction.

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