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Refugees Welcome

refugees-welcome.net

241–250 of 313 posts

Re: Refugees Welcome

#241
post #199
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True - there's still ways of helping without that. But what's the fear about letting refugees into the country? Why are people so scared of this? (genuine question =)) It seems to me the only countries whom are scared are the ones who think they're the best, greatest and fear loosing that status. This sounds like idk...country ego? lol.

> But what's the fear about letting refugees into the country? Why are people so scared of this? (genuine question =)) It's the fear of letting people with very, very, different social standards in our countries. And it's warranted. More than 50% of these refugees believe that whoever leaves the faith of Islam should suffer the death penalty and that adultery should be dealt with stoning to death . We are not talking…

[deleted]

Re: Refugees Welcome

#242
post #235
post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Seems like you have no interest in providing a source that proves what you're saying? What do Muslims in Western countries actually believe? The concept of cultural assimilation is not a new one, but maybe it is to you. No, it seems you have no interest in being coherent. How is a newly arrived refugee/migrant a Muslim from a Western country? Also, the data VERY CLEARLY states than more than 2/3 of the Muslims livi…

Ah, so no source. Great! Let me simplify it for you: 1. Above, you are lamenting the fact that Western countries allow Muslims in. (I shed a single tear for your cause.) 2. You suggest that "we" (presumably Western Christians) should be afraid of Muslims because the majority believe that "non-believers" should be stoned, etc. 3. You present "evidence" that shows that the majority of Muslims that currently live in par…

Yes, yes, if you nitpick enough you can bypass all obstacles, like:

1-The fact these are people just arriving Europe, they aren't westernised by any means.

2-The fact that the vast majority of Muslims living in other European countries shown in the study do believe in following the Sharia law.

3-The fact that you claim that these people are in some way different than the majority of the people in their countries, just because you want too.

Perfect, you managed to find that the 1% of the African people that suits your alternate reality are the only refugees/migrants that are arriving in Europe. Well done.

EDIT: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_Kingdom#Sh...

P.S. - 36% of Muslims living in UK believe if a Muslim converts to another religion they should be punished by death. But I'm sure you will find some way to nitpick out of this and tell me that these Muslims don't count. Right?

Re: Refugees Welcome

#243
post #130

Sincerely. I'm European, I'm from Euro zone. I walk in the streets in my country's capital at night and a see dozens of homeless hungry people just by walking a couple of Km. I just can't put my head around on why we should help the refugees before we help our own people. It just doesn't make any sense to me. We are giving millions to find houses for these refugees/migrants but we let our own live and die on the stre…

I try to expand the meaning of "our own" in my mind. And for me in this crisis it might be easier than for you, because my great-grandpa was a migrant worker from Ukraine, and my grandpa is from Palestine, and settled down in Europe after he was on studies here and I have extended family in Jordan. And I am wondering what will happen when ISIL starts knocking on the small kingdoms doorsteps and when part of my family decides to take an extended partially involuntary European vacation ...

And I am a guy that has helped in a soup kitchen a few times and support the new decision of my city council to give public housing homeless families.

Re: Refugees Welcome

#244
post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're conveniently ignoring the other's side of the argument: such as importing poverty, low wage or unskilled workers, crime, racism, xenophobia, radical ideologies and religions, incompatible views and behavior, things such as "no-go" zones, and all the other things that European countries and seeing with non-European immigration, is not a net benefit to society. The rise of the native push-back against immigratio…

So refugees are to blame for xenophobia, racism and violent attacks on themselves? Stop hitting yourself, eh? That’s absurd, completely and utterly. Basic human rights and human dignity should be on all our minds. Compared to that the problems you name are trivial matters. Oh my god, the obscenely rich Europeans might lose a tiny bit of their living standard, how horrific! That’s arrogance on the ivory tower. (It’s s…

> So refugees are to blame for xenophobia, racism and violent attacks on themselves? Stop hitting yourself, eh? That’s absurd, completely and utterly.

You are arguing with yourself as you are the one making that statement.

> Basic human rights and human dignity should be on all our minds. Compared to that the problems you name are trivial matters.

None of the things I listed, that are being brought in by immigration, are trivial matters. Those are things that break societies, not sustain them.

What we are seeing today with immigration are highly incompatible groups forming parallel societies within (and in many cases very intentionally), that are actively hostile to the host in many ways.

Re: Refugees Welcome

#245

80% of these refugees should be accepted by the US, after all, if you give weaponry to various "free" syrian armies to cause havoc in the region, you should take responsibility to take care of the humanitarian disaster that results. The other 20% - UK, France and Germany, whoever dumped weapons on that region. Unpopular as it is - the middle east was doing much better under strong dictators. They had civilization goi…

Let's at least mention the real culprits: Russia and Iran.

Re: Refugees Welcome

#246
post #242
post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, so no source. Great! Let me simplify it for you: 1. Above, you are lamenting the fact that Western countries allow Muslims in. (I shed a single tear for your cause.) 2. You suggest that "we" (presumably Western Christians) should be afraid of Muslims because the majority believe that "non-believers" should be stoned, etc. 3. You present "evidence" that shows that the majority of Muslims that currently live in par…

Yes, yes, if you nitpick enough you can bypass all obstacles, like: 1-The fact these are people just arriving Europe, they aren't westernised by any means. 2-The fact that the vast majority of Muslims living in other European countries shown in the study do believe in following the Sharia law. 3-The fact that you claim that these people are in some way different than the majority of the people in their countries, jus…

You have no interest in pursuing a genuine argument. I am not "bypassing those obstacles". This isn't nitpicking, this is logic over xenophobia.

1. They are not westernized when they arrive, but they can and do become westernized over time. [1]

2. Those are Muslim European countries, not "your" type of countries. Your comparison is meaningless, and is different than the one you originally made.

3. They are not different than the majority. I am asking you to prove that they are a representative sample of that country's population. (Still waiting!)

[1] For example, http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01419870903318169

EDIT: You suggest that I am the one cherry picking, but you're the one failing to comprehend an important qualifier on the 36%, namely it is only 16 to 24 year olds, and you are ignoring the rest of the (positive) statistics in that paragraph:

"On religious issues a poll reported that 36% of 16–24 year olds believe if a Muslim converts to another religion they should be punished by death, compared to 19% of 55+ year old Muslims"

"However around 83% of Muslims are proud to be a British citizen, compared to 79% of the general public, 77% of Muslims strongly identify with Britain while only 50% of the wider population do, 86.4% of Muslims feel they belong in Britain, slightly more than the 85.9% of Christians, 82% of Muslims want to live in diverse and mixed neighbourhoods compared to 63% of non-Muslim Britons"

"A poll reported that 59% of Muslims would prefer to live under British law, compared to 28% who would prefer to live under sharia law."

Frankly, I'm not going to bitch too loudly if I think Muslims should cut themselves some slack regarding converts. What is the threat to you, so long as no action is taken on anyone, if one British Muslim wants to think a British ex-Muslim should be stoned for conversion? Regardless, by no means is the belief you are parading about a "majority" belief. You are shifting the goalposts.

Re: Refugees Welcome

#247
post #226
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, migrants are not a good sample of the population of the country they originate from. They are special in some way and by taking a 3000 Km journey trough Africa they are already Westernised even before setting foot in Europe. Makes perfect sense... I mean, makes perfect sense to try and deny reality in such an obvious way.

Seems like you have no interest in providing a source that proves what you're saying? What do Muslims in Western countries actually believe? The concept of cultural assimilation is not a new one, but maybe it is to you.

Source is here for instance:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_Kingdom#Sh...

36% of Muslims living in UK believe if a Muslim converts to another religion they should be punished by death. But I'm sure you will find some way to nitpick out of this and tell me that these Muslims don't count. Right?

Also, in case you intellectual honesty doesn't allow you to figure out, these are that Muslims that in their great majority are supposed to be already westernised since they actually lived for a long time (or were even born) in the West.

Re: Refugees Welcome

#248
post #62
post #23

It "amazes" me why these "refugees" flock to Germany or Great Britain and not to their very wealthy brethren in countries such as Kuwaii, Egypt, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Arab Emirates, etc... Same culture, same religion and they are much closer! It also amazes me why the EU leaders insist for other European countries to accept these "refugees" when the majority of EU countries is not responsible for this situation at all…

We (Europeans) never bothered about cultural and religious closeness when we were occupying, colonizing and sucking goods from them, did we?

And if you go back far enough you can also talk about the crusades, the Romans invading Africa, the Greeks invading the middle east... and well, I don't know, you can certainly come up with more ideas.

Looks like we still have about 2000 more years of self deprecation here in Europe fellas, so that we can finally atone for the things our ancestors did.

But only we, cause all the crap that African empires and Islamic empires did in the past are obviously of no concern. They should automatically be forgiven and forgotten... we don't, obviously, we have to pay trough all eternity.

Re: Refugees Welcome

#249
post #226
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, migrants are not a good sample of the population of the country they originate from. They are special in some way and by taking a 3000 Km journey trough Africa they are already Westernised even before setting foot in Europe. Makes perfect sense... I mean, makes perfect sense to try and deny reality in such an obvious way.

Seems like you have no interest in providing a source that proves what you're saying? What do Muslims in Western countries actually believe? The concept of cultural assimilation is not a new one, but maybe it is to you.

Turkish Muslims (the majority of Muslims in Germany) were polled on the following:

1. Islam is the only true religion: 72% YES 2. There should be a Muslim majority in Germany: 46% YES 3. Want only Muslims as neighbours: 62% YES

> http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article108659406/Tuer...

Re: Refugees Welcome

#250
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think ad hominem is necessarily a bad thing in this case; we practice it as a society by not counting votes from 17-yr-olds based not on the merits of their ideas, but their persons. And in this specific case: citizenship and residency ought to give one's voice more weight.

For sure, but we're not counting votes, we discussing policy. In the case of discussion the goal is to hear many sides and opinions of the merits and drawbacks of an issue. Just like how in an election non-voting minors can still participate in debate, in a discussion of policy I think we should still hear the opinions of others.

But was it an opinion?

When members of a group discuss policy for that group, they do so under the implicit assumption that their values are similar enough that what they are doing in the conversation is trying to find a way to achieve their shared values.

But the great-great-great-grandparent comment was simply a statement of values, not a suggestion of how parties concerned could achieve theirs.

I realize the lines are fuzzy: HN is certainly not a 'murican forum for 'murican issues. But its composition is such that neither is it a non-American forum. As such, the greatx3-grandparent could have been more sensitive.

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