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A Case That Has Microsoft, Apple and Amazon Agreeing

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Re: A Case That Has Microsoft, Apple and Amazon Agreeing

#101

"There’s irony in any tech company confronting the government on privacy matters, considering how much heat many take for mining their own customer information and using it for advertising and other profitable purposes." See, I don't find this very ironic. In fact, my only real issue with data mining and analysis by these sorts of companies is the way governments can demand this info without my approval. If Microsoft…

>It's like signing a contract where someone else has the ability to change the fine print after I've signed it.

I don't disagree with your points about government access to this cloud information ... but this point would carry a lot more weight if these services didn't routinely get away with unilaterally changing their privacy terms.

I also really doubt people have well-formed beliefs about exactly which privacy rights they are giving up for these services, and government agents would probably be in a lot more trouble if they misled you about which rights you were waiving.

Re: A Case That Has Microsoft, Apple and Amazon Agreeing

#102
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "3rd party doctrine" is a bullshit interpretation and it needs to die. When I go through the trouble of coming up with a long complicated password and setup two factor authentication it's pretty obvious that I have "an expectation of privacy". Maybe what the tech companies need to do is have a checkmark on sign up that says "I expect my data to be private".

It sounds like a joke, but would this work?

He clicked the check box... there's nothing we can do here images entire backup anyway

Re: A Case That Has Microsoft, Apple and Amazon Agreeing

#103
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as there is a data silo that is not under your explicit control you have indeed implicitly granted all parties willing to invest enough to break into that silo implicit access. Where exactly is that full of shit? The problem isn't the implicit agreements. The problem is lack of control and centralization. P.S.: I'd also tone down the language. We're having a discussion and calling someone else's opinion "full…

Why is it that data under your control is immune to third parties "willing to invest enough to break [in]", but data trusted to an otherwise reputable service provider is not?

If you're the government, it is easier to milk the relationship you have with telcos and the tech industry to get them to hand over data voluntarily/through the court than it is seek out a warrant to confiscate physical property in a suspect's possession which makes it obvious that they're being investigated.

Re: A Case That Has Microsoft, Apple and Amazon Agreeing

#104

Agreeing "for once"? Hardly. Apple and Microsoft are already on record as agreeing to fix wages, creating a cartel affecting a million tech workers. https://pando.com/2014/03/22/revealed-apple-and-googles-wage...

And because tech workers see unions as evil....

I'm a 10x unicorn making 1x salary. I don't need a union.

Re: A Case That Has Microsoft, Apple and Amazon Agreeing

#105

Microsoft has shown that they are quite willing to access induviduals private data if they have a financial stake in it [0]. Yes, they eventually backtracked under public pressure (after trying very hard to justify how it's totally okay because they were going to pay a lawyer to rubber-stamp things in the future), but it's rather hard to listen to their general council talking about how they value privacy on principl…

Is there any evidence that any companies were willingly going along with PRISM? Seems like they were under gag orders and potential fines (Yahoo said $250K a day). Not sure what choice they had. Though MS accessing user's data via Hotmail for internal review really does scuttle their credibility.

You gain a lot: connections, contracts, insider information and special privilege if you play nice with the government.

If it's a secret program, what do they really have to lose?

Re: A Case That Has Microsoft, Apple and Amazon Agreeing

#106
post #56
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government has this ability with near all other relationships you have. So much so that they have codified the few that it doesn't apply to. We put lawyers, doctors, clergy and spouses in a special category but others can be required to divulge any information they have on you with the appropriate order. (What's appropriate is another discussion) Ultimately, realize that any dealing you have is open to the govern…

Exactly. The police can read all my letters if a judge allows it. They can tap my phone, bug my bedroom, track my movement, perform a cavity search, take my blood and DNA, detain me, and if I make really bad decisions even kill me. And I am totally fine with that in principle, only not with a few somewhat minor details and missing checks and balances. I want _my_ government to be able to do all that, according to the…

Yes, that is fine. I don't want _your_ government, which I can't elect to read my data at all however. A good example is say data mining for giving/not giving visas. It's a much more murky area without a typical due process - there is someone making a judgement call what is "more" or "less" likely, not proving anything beyond reasonable doubt. I would vastly prefer if I control what I give to _your_ government for dealing with this kind of process as opposed to what they can mine from random US companies about me (that I might not even have an account with - facebook knows a lot about me and who my friends are despite me not having an account there and not agreeing to any T&C at all).

Re: A Case That Has Microsoft, Apple and Amazon Agreeing

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hot dang, that last line is insightful. Some people will argue that whenever you let someone have data about yourself, you're implicitly giving access to practically everyone by virtue of often imperfect security. I believe that those people are full of shit.

As long as there is a data silo that is not under your explicit control you have indeed implicitly granted all parties willing to invest enough to break into that silo implicit access. Where exactly is that full of shit? The problem isn't the implicit agreements. The problem is lack of control and centralization. P.S.: I'd also tone down the language. We're having a discussion and calling someone else's opinion "full…

I apologize for the strong language, my intention was not to quash discussion, but to stir it up, I have many thoughts on the topic but only a short time to articulate any of them- a spirited "I disagree!" was all I could budget time for at that moment. :)

I argue that part of the solution to this problem is the need for rules and standard practices. And moreso- the big problem and big deal here isn't even my own data, but rather the data other people gather on me. It's not that I want to keep my trove of My Little Pony erotic fanfiction secret- it's that when I do a Google search for incendiary dildos, I'm perfectly fine with google using my interest to target ads to me (they can inform me on the latest incendiary dildo technology!)- it's that I don't want my employer, the IRS, FBI, CIA, etc. to use that information to employ some hodge-podge machine learning algorithm on a dataset with my interest in incendiary dildos included (and therefore decide that they'll target me, because their algorithm indicate correlation between incendiary dildo interest and terrorism).

In other words, no amount of data siloing will protect you from this, dkarapetyan, it's your movements and actions in the digital world - and companies' observations of them - that we're talking about. There's simply no way (that I know of) for me to both communicate to Google my search terms and receive services, have them be able to use that data to target ads to me, but also have them not store that data on me in a way that a government entity could demand it from them. Of course, we're nervous about hackers from, say, drug cartels doing something similar, but we depend on responsible storage practices to stop that- we can presently safely stop the thief at the window, but the guy that shows up at the door demanding ransom or our family dies, we've got nothing. In that metaphor, because Google has to have access to the data in order to make it useful (and make money with it), someone with any kind of legal authority can send google's executives to jail until they comply and hand over the data.

The ransom metaphor may represent the crux of the whole debate. There will always be some risk of third parties gaining access to data, but some people use the 'implicit' argument to assert that because a bad actor could gain access to the data, that a government entity should be allowed to access/collect the data legally without a warrant. (That, by the way, is a more exact representation of the opinion that I called 'full of shit'.) The REAL risk, and the one where the ransom metaphor applies, is in an entity that can legally request such information and misuse it. Google, Microsoft, etc. can fragment and prevent most such truly valuable and extensive data collections from being breached fully but they are completely powerless against an aggressive intelligence agency insisting they pass on the data (and keep quiet about it) "or else".

Because the companies derive great value from our data, they want to keep it safe and use it for approved purposes- and license it or sell it to others who will do the same. We (and they) have tools to keep it reasonably safe for such purposes (not perfectly, but primarily with the idea that it would take many breaches to access all the data for even a portion of the customer database system). So we give them a meager amount of trust! But all those protections are NULL if the legal system allows government entities to legitimately demand all that data without probable cause.

Bah. Forgive the length. Brevity takes time, but especially where you'd asked me not to declare you full of shit, I wanted to respond. I appreciate your response, even though I disagree with you.

Re: A Case That Has Microsoft, Apple and Amazon Agreeing

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any evidence that any companies were willingly going along with PRISM? Seems like they were under gag orders and potential fines (Yahoo said $250K a day). Not sure what choice they had. Though MS accessing user's data via Hotmail for internal review really does scuttle their credibility.

> Is there any evidence that any companies were willingly going along with PRISM? Seems like they were under gag orders and potential fines (Yahoo said $250K a day). Not sure what choice they had. I'm not aware of any evidence of their intent, no, just that they assisted in collection. I believe Glenn Greenwald has stated that they were a willing and proactive participant, but that that information came from NSA inte…

I would say that even if they collaborated with this under legal threats, they are still morally responsible for their decisions to support the surveillance state

Perhaps, but at some point they have to be excused if they were complying with the law. It's our jobs as citizens to ensure we have the right laws. In a way, it's kind of like blaming the soldiers for the 2003 Iraq war. I don't blame them. I want them to fight their guts out believing that they are answering their highest calling (otherwise they lessen their odds of surviving it).

But I want the sonofabitch who sent them there and caused the deaths of all those innocent Iraqis to go to jail.

Re: A Case That Has Microsoft, Apple and Amazon Agreeing

#109
post #101

"There’s irony in any tech company confronting the government on privacy matters, considering how much heat many take for mining their own customer information and using it for advertising and other profitable purposes." See, I don't find this very ironic. In fact, my only real issue with data mining and analysis by these sorts of companies is the way governments can demand this info without my approval. If Microsoft…

>It's like signing a contract where someone else has the ability to change the fine print after I've signed it. I don't disagree with your points about government access to this cloud information ... but this point would carry a lot more weight if these services didn't routinely get away with unilaterally changing their privacy terms. I also really doubt people have well-formed beliefs about exactly which privacy rig…

Sounds like you're saying that frequent privacy rights changes and people not understanding their own rights in some way justifies this ?

Re: A Case That Has Microsoft, Apple and Amazon Agreeing

#110

"There’s irony in any tech company confronting the government on privacy matters, considering how much heat many take for mining their own customer information and using it for advertising and other profitable purposes." See, I don't find this very ironic. In fact, my only real issue with data mining and analysis by these sorts of companies is the way governments can demand this info without my approval. If Microsoft…

It seems like you're perfectly content for Googappazon to turn around and voluntarily sell "your" data to governments. Given that it's really their data about you , they don't even need to disclose this in the TOS. The best you could hope for is for companies to loudly prevent themselves in their contracts. Of course they could end up going through commercial third parties, or any other plausibly justifiable loophole…

> It seems like you're perfectly content if Googappazon turns around and voluntarily sells "your" data to governments, since you've consented for them to use it.

Use it under the limited license you agreed to. Not to use it for any purpose at all. This is disingenuous rubbish and you know it.

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