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Fragments of World's Oldest Koran May Predate Muhammad

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Re: Fragments of World's Oldest Koran May Predate Muhammad

#51
While I would actually like this to be true (just to see how it would affect Muslim beliefs), I don't think it is. But what surprises me more than anything else is how a legitimate historian can come to the conclusion that this finding changes in any way what we know already, especially since the same person admits that the radiocarbon dating only applies to the ink and not the parchment.

The quotes from Tom Small are unremarkable considering his previous publications and statements about Islam.

Re: Fragments of World's Oldest Koran May Predate Muhammad

#52
post #30
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and like all religions it inspires everything from massive works of charity to zealotry, persecution, and bigotry. A few people try to claim that other religions don't inspire terrorist groups, but that's clearly bullshit. Buddhism is generally seen as pacifist but there's a Buddhist army and probably 2 Buddhist terrorist groups. (And that's not including Aum Shinryko) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Karen…

I hadn't heard of the Buddhist Army, so I looked at your link in wiki. Kind of undermines your point. > Though the majority of Karens are Buddhist, the Karen political leadership and leadership of the Karen insurgency have been overwhelmingly Christian, as a legacy of American missionary influence over the 19th and early 20th centuries.

Re-read the first line:

> The Democratic Karen Benevolent Army formerly known as Democratic Karen Buddhist Army (Burmese: တိုးတက်သော ဗုဒ္ဓဘာသာ ကရင်အမျိုးသား တပ်ဖွဲ့; abbreviated DKBA) is a breakaway group of Buddhist former soldiers and officers of the predominantly Karen Christian led Karen National Liberation Army (KNLA), one of the larger insurgent armies in Burma.

The KNLA is mostly Christian. The DBKA is the buddhist breakaway group.

Re: Fragments of World's Oldest Koran May Predate Muhammad

#53
post #37
post #34

> 568 A.D. … 645 A.D. … 570 A.D. and 632 A.D. … 610 A.D. … 622 A.D. It's 'A.D. year ,' not ' year A.D.'! Sheesh.

When discussing history, especially Islamic history, it would be better to use year C.E. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Era

But CE's still just the same numbering system as AD. Much better to use AUC[0].

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ab_urbe_condita

Re: Fragments of World's Oldest Koran May Predate Muhammad

#54
post #26
post #20

Alright, this headline just seems wrong. First, radiocarbon dating comes with error bars. The date range identified is from 570 C.E. to 632 C.E. Given that Muhammad is thought to have founded Islam in the period from 610 C.E. to 630 C.E., and that date keeping was relatively good in this period, this would seem to confirm rather than dispute the traditional accounts. Second, the radiocarbon dating was performed on th…

> and like all religions it inspires everything from massive works of charity to zealotry, persecution, and bigotry. A few people try to claim that other religions don't inspire terrorist groups, but that's clearly bullshit. Buddhism is generally seen as pacifist but there's a Buddhist army and probably 2 Buddhist terrorist groups. (And that's not including Aum Shinryko) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Karen…

I would add the persecution of the Rohingya in Myanmar where religious buddhist leaders largely are the ones stirring up the bad feelings against "the muslims"

Also the time Buddhists tried to reestablish their feudal theocracy with weapons they got from the CIA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_Tibetan_program)

Re: Fragments of World's Oldest Koran May Predate Muhammad

#55
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When discussing history, especially Islamic history, it would be better to use year C.E. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Era

But CE's still just the same numbering system as AD. Much better to use AUC[0]. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ab_urbe_condita

Well, really we should use the World Calendar, as specified by the League of Nations, or the Hijri since we're discussing Islam, or good 'ol ISO 8601 as this is Hacker News.

Heh, yeah, it all does become a little silly.

The important thing is communication. Using Christian dates is needlessly upsetting when discussing world religions. Upsetting people disrupts communication, so I avoid it.

Re: Fragments of World's Oldest Koran May Predate Muhammad

#56
post #47
post #20

Alright, this headline just seems wrong. First, radiocarbon dating comes with error bars. The date range identified is from 570 C.E. to 632 C.E. Given that Muhammad is thought to have founded Islam in the period from 610 C.E. to 630 C.E., and that date keeping was relatively good in this period, this would seem to confirm rather than dispute the traditional accounts. Second, the radiocarbon dating was performed on th…

> Third, I'm forced to draw a rather unfortunate conclusion from this information. The assertion in this article seems deliberately calculated to undermine the historicity of Islam. There is a very sad and shortsighted movement in some corners of military scholarship right now that identifies Islam itself as the enemy, often beginning with Huntington's "clash of civilizations" narrative and ending with some examples…

This is a very good point.

I'm drawing on a few cues here that raise my antennae, e.g. the conflict with scholars of Islam, the strength of the assertions compared to the shoddiness of the evidence, the promotion by a particular source (News Corp., which has an unabashed record of Islamophobia), the prolific use of A.D. vs C.E., etc.

Particularly, the assertion that the Quran predates Muhammad seems absurd given the evidence, and leads me to believe that this is part of a pattern of anti-Islamic articles I've noticed recently.

Take my comment for what it's worth. Your conclusions may vary.

Re: Fragments of World's Oldest Koran May Predate Muhammad

#57
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I seem to be writing short comments this morning myself, for which I apologize, but this is an absolutely terrible non-argument. You have a thesis statement, an assertion of fact that is essentially irrelevant to that thesis, and then the assertion that, besides, it would be good if your thesis was wrong. What you actually meant to say is "if scholarly religious studies do undermine the great religions and lesser rel…

To undermine a religion, it's necessary for the religion to have fragile beliefs or beliefs proven untrue and accepted untrue. Since their beliefs are faith based, it's hard to undermine them. Believers would have to believe these findings upended their religions, which is something I find unlikely. So, it's almost impossible to undermine them. The only thing these findings do is reinforce what non believers already…

What is the thing that "non-believers already know" that these findings reinforce? I do not think that you will find a rational basis for any such thing in the facts cited by the article, as I shall discuss presently. This suggests that it is the tone and context of the article which provides your feeling of 'reinforcement', which in turn suggests that what is being appealed to is not your capability for reason, but your acquired prejudices.

The article presents a single scientific finding: the parchment on which the Birmingham Koran was written was very likely manufactured sometime between 568 AD and 632 AD. That is all. There is no other finding presented in the article.

The article presents four pieces of valid contextual information regarding dates. Firstly, that Muhammed most likely lived between 570 AD and 645 AD. Secondly, that Islam is generally regarded as having been founded in 610 AD. Thirdly, that the first Muslim community was established at Medina in 622 AD. Fourthly, that the first known 'official' version of the Koran was assembled on the orders of the third Caliph, Uthman, in 653 AD.

The article also clarifies it is known for a fact that many sections of the Koran had been written down well before 653 AD.

In this context, we have Keith Small's statement: "This gives more ground to what have been peripheral views of the Koran's genesis, like that Muhammad and his early followers used a text that was already in existence and shaped it to fit their own political and theological agenda, rather than Muhammad receiving a revelation from heaven,"

Clearly, the prior existence of the text of the Koran would establish a solid, factual doubt regarding the story of the Koran's origins. But just as clearly, no such thing is established here. The evidence presented merely fails to eliminate the possibility the Koran could have been written before so-and-so date. The parchment could have been written on before 610 AD, for instance. But even if it had not been, the possibility that parts of the Koran predated Islam would remain, because there is no way to disprove a hypothetical.

Thus, it is hard to see how the assertion that 'more ground is given' makes any sense outside of a prejudicial, opinionated context. There is no ground given that was not already there. What Keith Small is announcing is basically that the available evidence fails to disprove his admittedly fringe hypothesis. What he is overlooking is that the evidence we are discussing could only ever has (a) proven, or (b) failed to disprove his hypothesis. It was never at risk of falsification.

There is no rational basis to regard the "failure to disprove" as significant, and to treat it as such is evidence a prejudicial and emotive involvement in the subject matter.

Re: Fragments of World's Oldest Koran May Predate Muhammad

#58
post #16

> University of Oxford says the fragments were produced between the years 568 A.D. and 645 A.D. Muhammad is generally believed to have lived between 570 A.D. and 632 A.D. Without a narrower range, it's ridiculous to say that it predates Muhammad. At most it predates the first known, fully assembled Qur'an from 653CE. (Aside: I realize this story comes from Fox News but its listing of dates as "Anno Domini" is in poor…

Why poor taste? As is common knowledge A.D. is an abbreviation for Anno Domini. You might as well say that calling Muhammamad 'The prophet' is in poor taste. For most people in the Western world the year zero is an arbitrary number and not understood as year of 'Our Lord' nor is Muhammad regarded as a prophet. Both are aids to communication not exegesis. Not living in the US, the reference to Fox News is a bit lost o…

Fox News are unashamedly biased towards Christianity.

The poor taste is because it is an article about one religion's prophet but uses a date suffix which effectively translates as "our God is Jesus". It is difficult to be academic about the subject matter if your word choice is highly partisan. This is why academics use "Common Era", aka CE.

Re: Fragments of World's Oldest Koran May Predate Muhammad

#59
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, please. CE means precisely AD but with a gloss of PC lipstick. Next we're going to hear that uttering AD instead of CE triggers those of weak constitution.

Older works I have seen referred to CE as meaning "Christian Era" anyway. I don't know if that predates "Common Era" or not, though.

The term was originally "Vulgar Era" (meaning "the one that the people use", as opposed to the aristocracy which dated from the reign of various kings).

Jewish academics started using "Common Era" to mean the same thing as "Vulgar Era" in the mid 19th century.

"Christian Era" has never been used academically. It presumably came about due to people guessing at the "CE" in academic texts". It's not wrong though, so there's no problem. Also, unlike "Year of our Lord", it doesn't align the author with Christianity; it is merely factual.

Re: Fragments of World's Oldest Koran May Predate Muhammad

#60
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why poor taste? As is common knowledge A.D. is an abbreviation for Anno Domini. You might as well say that calling Muhammamad 'The prophet' is in poor taste. For most people in the Western world the year zero is an arbitrary number and not understood as year of 'Our Lord' nor is Muhammad regarded as a prophet. Both are aids to communication not exegesis. Not living in the US, the reference to Fox News is a bit lost o…

Fox News are unashamedly biased towards Christianity. The poor taste is because it is an article about one religion's prophet but uses a date suffix which effectively translates as "our God is Jesus". It is difficult to be academic about the subject matter if your word choice is highly partisan. This is why academics use "Common Era", aka CE.

Using CE -- either as "Common Era" or "Christian Era" -- dating from the same origin date as A.D. (and as a synonym for A.D.) is just as much of a Christian-origin and Christian-centric system as A.D., and is several hundred years old.

The idea that it is somehow more "neutral" and appropriate for academic when compared to A.D. is a fairly recent idea that ignores the history, origin, basis, and meaning (which directly holds Christianity as the norm) of the label.

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