Live data from Hacker News

The Solar Sunflower

arstechnica.com

21–30 of 47 posts

Re: The Solar Sunflower

#21
post #8
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I built a (crappy) prototype to test this and it worked remarkably well: http://pics.camarades.com/v/jacques/renewables/concentrator/

That is pretty cool, it looks remarkably similar to something one of the Google Energy projects was doing. I tried something a bit different which was to make an actual parabola but to build a mirror reflected the Sun into the same point all the time. (basically you take advantage of the fact that the position of the Sun in the sky for all time/seasons can be calculated for a particular latitude, and then build a ref…

> The real magic in the sunflower though is that its a dual cycle system harvesting both thermal and electric energy from the system.

I did the same with that setup above, the collector was water cooled and the hot water could be used. Taught me a ton about what you can and can not do to a normal (cheap) solar panel from a thermal point of view. That's a lot of suns to concentrate on a single panel and the effect on the life span of the panel was quite pronounced, even with sufficient cooling.

The big trick (at least, so I thought) was that I figured out a gearing that would allow you to drive that whole setup with one motor and a small solar panel.

Re: The Solar Sunflower

#22
post #3

I take exception to the use of the word 'invention' here because that most likely implies that patents are at stake. Tech such as this has been tried on-and-off by various parties since the 80's, with many variations on geometry, working fluid, actuation and tracking. Parabolic segments are a pretty expensive way to do this because it requires moving the collector around. Much simpler and easier to have a stationary…

> Tech such as this has been tried on-and-off by various parties since the 80's, with many variations on geometry, working fluid, actuation and tracking.

And if all those folks didn't succeed, isn't that more reason to give Airlight a patent? Before some competitor realizes that Airlight has fixed the thing everyone else couldn't, then shamelessly copies them?

Re: The Solar Sunflower

#23
I wonder why they are bothering with gallium-arsenide panels when using a solar thermal setup would be a lot more cost efficient and probably more energy efficient as well. You simply run some kind of coolant through the collector, exchange the heat into water, and run a steam turbine from the resulting steam. You can even collect the water afterwords and condense it to get distilled water. There are many power plants that run on that principle, but it would be cool to see something that can be mounted in the back yard. And the materials necessary are very common and cheep, so the entire product could be much cheeper as well.

Re: The Solar Sunflower

#24
post #23

I wonder why they are bothering with gallium-arsenide panels when using a solar thermal setup would be a lot more cost efficient and probably more energy efficient as well. You simply run some kind of coolant through the collector, exchange the heat into water, and run a steam turbine from the resulting steam. You can even collect the water afterwords and condense it to get distilled water. There are many power plant…

Well, you'd end up with something like this:

https://www.mtholyoke.edu/~wang30y/csp/ParabolicDish.html

GaAs panels have ~40% efficiency. It's not easy/dirt cheap (you need high temperatures, and materials to go with that) to get that much efficiency out of steam turbine (or Stirling engine). For example your typical nuclear power plant would have about 33% thermal efficiency. And with the panels you have less moving mechanical parts that need servicing. And the panels are silent vs. steam turbine. Lighter also. Pure solar thermal has been tried/used many times before.

Re: The Solar Sunflower

#25
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a good question. The panels are available, for example these: http://www.solimpeks.com/pv-t-hybrid-solar-collectors/ My guess is they're not as popular because the overall installation complexity is much higher: you have to run the piping, and I'm not even sure exactly what you do with the hot water that comes out. There won't be room for it in your existing hot water heater, so you'll need a second tank, and wh…

The heating water part is really common here in Germany and not that big of a deal, and not just for new constructions. Basic heat storage/exchange parts often easily fit in existing rooms or even in the space the old heating system took. You only see either solar cells or heat collectors though. Why there are no/not many combined setups, no clue. Maybe the efficiency goes down to much and limits the range of regions…

> Maybe the efficiency goes down to much and limits the range of regions where it is viable?

Actually, efficiency for PV would go up (the colder the cell, the higher the efficiency).

> Maybe there are regulatory issues with water + power systems so close together (driving up installation and maintenance prices).

Maybe, that would be interesting to learn :)

Re: The Solar Sunflower

#27
A bit of background from some earlier articles I've seen added to this;

The concept is based on IBM technology aimed mostly at thermal management in coimputer servers, but with applications to solar power. See e.g.,: https://redd.it/2afct9

Traditional PV has the problem that elecrical generation is degraded at higher temperatures. This is especially the case where sunlight is concentrated on the collector. That's why most PV are flat panels rather than arrays of (cheap) mirrors + panels. Another factor is that flat panels don't need to track the sun (you point them generally south and angled by your latitude), hugely simplifying installations.

The "5,000 suns" bit here basically means that a total reflective surface of 5,000x the PV area is used. This also means that heat is approximately 5,000x greater. An advantage is that you need far less of the expensive PV collector. A problem such designs is encountering is that PV really isn't that expensive anymore. Oh well.... Of problems to have, this is a relatively good one.

Getting both electricity and heat from the same installation, if you've got something to do with both, can be useful. Though it often isn't. As the images accompanying the article show, the "sunflower" design ... isn't exactly unobtrusive. Where panels can be designed directly into new or existing construction, studding your walls and roof with heleostat parabolic dishes is ... more challenging.

There are also integrated solar PV + thermal systems. As others have noted they increase complexity and installation costs, though if you can stomach those the benefits in terms of overall fuel and mains savings are substantial.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photovoltaic_thermal_hybrid_so...

A few further points:

● The real key in solar isn't efficiency but cost. Single-layer solar is limited to about 37% efficiency because physics, the peak theoretical efficiency is about 85%, at high cost, again, because of physics. You're starting from a ~1kW/m² flux, with reductions from there for panel efficiency, spacing factors, capacity factor, inverter (direct DC use would be a 10% gain), and net storage costs. The 85% efficiency gains of the Sunflower would all but certainly be eaten up through installation, maintenance, and manufacture costs.

● Solar and thermal can be combined, and with sufficient thermal mass, gains are fairly substantial.

● Total collector area matters. A small number of high-effieciency collectors ... collects a small amount of energy. A large, cheap area of modestly lower-efficiency collectors beats the efficiency gains. It's usually possible to increase collector area 2-10x. It's not possible to increase collector efficiency 10x starting at a 20% baseline.

For some massively impressive examples of what can be done with net-zero construction in Fairbanks, Alaska, see Thorsten Chlupp's Reina LLP:

http://www.reina-llc.com/

I particularly recommend the video series. http://www.reina-llc.com/resources/videos1/

The following two videos are long (2+ hours) but incredibly detailed. Particularly impressive are Chlupp's use of thermal mass (both static insulation and a central thermal-stratification 5,000 gallon tank), and the consequent challenges (air exchange, heat exchange on all interfaces, including freshwater and sewerage), and most critically: moisture control -- condensation across a 100+ degree thermal gradient is a massive challenge.

If you're looking for solid construction details, these are an excellent resource.

Path to Net Zero Energy Series -- Alaska's first Net Zero Homes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtHkvpRI6fc

Alaska's First Net Zero Energy Homes Performance Update https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xen_VWyDezY

2nd video is an update on the home described in the first. Goal achieved, except for plug-in Prius accounting.

Re: The Solar Sunflower

#28
post #26

The gigantic PS power plants in Seville are the same thing, using a water tower instead photovoltaics. They are quite spectacular: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PS10_solar_power_plant

They're not, as the whole point of the "Sunflower" is the integrated GaAs PV collector. The Seville CSP plant is a conventional concentrated solar (thermal) power plant: energy is generated via heat exchange and steam production using turbines, not from photovoltaic effects.

Re: The Solar Sunflower

#29
post #22
post #3

I take exception to the use of the word 'invention' here because that most likely implies that patents are at stake. Tech such as this has been tried on-and-off by various parties since the 80's, with many variations on geometry, working fluid, actuation and tracking. Parabolic segments are a pretty expensive way to do this because it requires moving the collector around. Much simpler and easier to have a stationary…

> Tech such as this has been tried on-and-off by various parties since the 80's, with many variations on geometry, working fluid, actuation and tracking. And if all those folks didn't succeed, isn't that more reason to give Airlight a patent? Before some competitor realizes that Airlight has fixed the thing everyone else couldn't, then shamelessly copies them?

Patents should not be linked to commercial success, if that's what you mean by "didn't succeed".

Re: The Solar Sunflower

#30
post #7

While reading the article, I was wondering why combined PV/water heating conventional panels aren't taking off on rooftop installations. Looks like something that would make a lot of sense.

It's a good question. The panels are available, for example these: http://www.solimpeks.com/pv-t-hybrid-solar-collectors/ My guess is they're not as popular because the overall installation complexity is much higher: you have to run the piping, and I'm not even sure exactly what you do with the hot water that comes out. There won't be room for it in your existing hot water heater, so you'll need a second tank, and wh…

...I'm not even sure exactly what you do with the hot water that comes out. There won't be room for it in your existing hot water heater, so you'll need a second tank, and where do you put it?

You recirculate water from your hot water tank through a heat exchanger that receives heat from the solar panels via a closed fluid loop. If the heat exchange would cool rather than heat your water, a thermostat turns the pump off.

Post reply on HN