Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why I’m Not Looking to Hire Computer-Science Majors

wsj.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 53 posts

Re: Why I’m Not Looking to Hire Computer-Science Majors

#21

Post by tokenadult »

seibelj wrote: post #7

Wow what a ridiculous article. For starters, only an extremely small slice of fresh-out-of-college developers would get a 120k salary and 300k in bonus and options. This is still absurdly high, if it's even true (and not exaggerated for the purpose of getting an article into the WSJ). I've noticed a sharp uptick in CS grads, and it seems starting salaries are actually nosing downwards. Or at least that's the case her…

whoever the author is

The article identifies who the author is. He is the leader of a startup. People who recognize his name know that he is the son of a very famous computer scientist (and the grandson of another computer scientist).

Re: Why I’m Not Looking to Hire Computer-Science Majors

#22

Post by tokenadult »

walshemj wrote: post #9

I think he's making the common mistake University is not there to teach specific skills but to teach you the broad elements of a field. That's why other engineering disciplines have CPD and it takes several years to get to full chartered status.

I think he's making the common mistake University is not there to teach specific skills but to teach you the broad elements of a field.

It should be food for thought as we discuss this article that the author is the son of a famous computer scientist who is a professor of computer science at Yale. I think the nature of a university education and what a university education is for was probably dinner-table conversation at his home as he was growing up.

Re: Why I’m Not Looking to Hire Computer-Science Majors

#23

Post by johan_larson »

walshemj wrote: post #9

I think he's making the common mistake University is not there to teach specific skills but to teach you the broad elements of a field. That's why other engineering disciplines have CPD and it takes several years to get to full chartered status.

I think this is an AND, not an XOR. Someone graduating with a degree in a technical discipline should have both up-to-the-minute skills in that discipline and also a sophisticated understanding of the theory of the field.

If you have only the former, you are a technician, who understands what to do and how but without a deep understanding of why. (And there are plenty of programs that turn out such people in the software field, typically through two-year degrees in community colleges.)

If you have only the latter, you are a theorist with a deep sophisticated understanding of hard problems in your field, but without the skills to build much of anything right now. You known the why, but not the how. But if that's really what you want, try a degree in math or maybe physics.

Technical undergraduate degrees are supposed to bridge this gap by teaching both the how and the why, producing people who both understand the subtleties and can do real work right now. That's really useful, which is why these graduates are so sought-after. A university that neglects either side of this span is producing people who are a whole lot less useful, and that's what Gelertner is pushing back against in his article.

Re: Why I’m Not Looking to Hire Computer-Science Majors

#24

Post by joshmn »

hodgesmr wrote: post #6
pavel_lishin wrote: post #3

> A junior developer fresh out of college can expect to earn around $10,000 monthly, plus benefits, a $100,000 signing bonus and $200,000 in stock options. Maybe I'm out of touch with the realities of the world, being an ancient 31-year old PHP/Java developer who's never written a line of something cool like Go in his life, but an expectation of $10k post-tax right out of college doesn't seem like a realistic expecta…

In the midwest, a dev with no professional experience straight out of college can expect to earn around $3,450 monthly (post-tax), plus benefits, no signing bonus, and no stock options.

I know a handful of kids who know how to just install WordPress and make a post that see that...

Re: Why I’m Not Looking to Hire Computer-Science Majors

#25

Post by jeremysmyth »

johan_larson wrote: post #23
walshemj wrote: post #9

I think he's making the common mistake University is not there to teach specific skills but to teach you the broad elements of a field. That's why other engineering disciplines have CPD and it takes several years to get to full chartered status.

I think this is an AND, not an XOR. Someone graduating with a degree in a technical discipline should have both up-to-the-minute skills in that discipline and also a sophisticated understanding of the theory of the field. If you have only the former, you are a technician, who understands what to do and how but without a deep understanding of why. (And there are plenty of programs that turn out such people in the soft…

Someone graduating with a degree in a technical discipline should have both up-to-the-minute skills in that discipline and also a sophisticated understanding of the theory of the field.

This falls apart at graduation + n years, unless you accept that up-to-the-minute skills must be maintained and regathered as the minutes progress.

If it's possible for an educated mind to continue to keep up-to-date, then one must accept that an educated mind, freshly graduated with a sophisticated understanding of the field can, and probably should, pick up the up-to-the-minute skills as part of the on-the-job training any new graduate acquires.

There's always a ramp-up in any new role, especially so for someone who's never worked professionally before. Given a choice, I'd rather aim for an education providing the depth, and the up-to-the-minute ramp-up happening on the job rather than the other way around, because I've never seen a developer's day job provide any significant theoretical depth beyond what is required to get the job done. If you don't learn how compilers and operating systems and low-level memory management and design patterns and concurrency and big-O notation work before you hit the workforce, you're not very likely to pick all those up at work.

Re: Why I’m Not Looking to Hire Computer-Science Majors

#26

Post by superuser2 »

hodgesmr wrote: post #6
pavel_lishin wrote: post #3

> A junior developer fresh out of college can expect to earn around $10,000 monthly, plus benefits, a $100,000 signing bonus and $200,000 in stock options. Maybe I'm out of touch with the realities of the world, being an ancient 31-year old PHP/Java developer who's never written a line of something cool like Go in his life, but an expectation of $10k post-tax right out of college doesn't seem like a realistic expecta…

In the midwest, a dev with no professional experience straight out of college can expect to earn around $3,450 monthly (post-tax), plus benefits, no signing bonus, and no stock options.

It's really pretty irrational (in terms of pay, career progression) to be a dev in the Midwest. Even if you don't like Bay Area cost of living there's Portland, Seattle, Boston, etc. the only reasons I can think of to stay would be a serious desire to own a suburban home or to live near your parents.

Re: Why I’m Not Looking to Hire Computer-Science Majors

#27

Post by redblacktree »

superuser2 wrote: post #26
hodgesmr wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the midwest, a dev with no professional experience straight out of college can expect to earn around $3,450 monthly (post-tax), plus benefits, no signing bonus, and no stock options.

It's really pretty irrational (in terms of pay, career progression) to be a dev in the Midwest. Even if you don't like Bay Area cost of living there's Portland, Seattle, Boston, etc. the only reasons I can think of to stay would be a serious desire to own a suburban home or to live near your parents.

> own a suburban home

I'm a developer in the Midwest, and that's pretty much it for me. I live where there are houses I can afford. I'm not much for the urban lifestyle.

Re: Why I’m Not Looking to Hire Computer-Science Majors

#30

Post by walshemj »

johan_larson wrote: post #23
walshemj wrote: post #9

I think he's making the common mistake University is not there to teach specific skills but to teach you the broad elements of a field. That's why other engineering disciplines have CPD and it takes several years to get to full chartered status.

I think this is an AND, not an XOR. Someone graduating with a degree in a technical discipline should have both up-to-the-minute skills in that discipline and also a sophisticated understanding of the theory of the field. If you have only the former, you are a technician, who understands what to do and how but without a deep understanding of why. (And there are plenty of programs that turn out such people in the soft…

So a civil engineer graduate fresh out of university can design a project of the size of say the Millau Viaduct?
Post reply on HN