How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive • Hacker News Board

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#31

Post by GuiA » Sun, Aug 30, 2015, 2:23 AM UTC

colinsidoti wrote: post #16

Any lefties here? I'm a lefty and feel stuck with the basic ballpoint because any other pen I try ends up with everything smudged. Not sure if that's just poor form on my part.

Lefty, grew up in France (= forced to use a fountain pen from 1st to 12th grade), I just learned how to write in a way that minimizes smudges (my 2nd grade teacher would tear apart any piece of work with smudges on it and make you redo it, that's French education for you), plus heavily use blotting paper.

Now I work for a big tech company and still carry a notebook + fountain pen + blotting paper to meetings, it amuses my coworkers.

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#32

Post by bane » Sun, Aug 30, 2015, 2:24 AM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #17

Is there even a point to learning cursive anymore? Seems like a waste of time if they're still teaching it to kids. I can't think of any practical purpose for it. Knowing cursive is about as useful as knowing how to use an abacus.

I think it's useful for being able to read old documents. My parents and grandparents wrote only in cursive and I'm finding I have to read their writing to younger people who can't read it.

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#33

Post by muddyrivers » Sun, Aug 30, 2015, 2:26 AM UTC

In my hometown in the 80's, elementary school kids were not allowed to use ballpoints. Fountain pens were allowed from the 3rd grade. Before that, wood-based pencils only. Even mechanical pencils were forbidden. It was said that ballpoints and mechanical pencils, especially the former, would have very negative effects on developing one's handwriting.

This was the case for Chinese, in which a good handwriting was highly regarded. As far as I know, there are no studies to prove or disprove the claim. It was true for me personally and for my classmates. I could execute many handwriting forms in pencils and in fountain pens easily while extremely hard, if ever possible, in ballpoints. After using ballpoints for a pretty long period, I couldn't write as well even if I picked up my fountain pens again. It had to take some time and some writing to get it back.

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#34

Post by witty_username » Sun, Aug 30, 2015, 2:27 AM UTC

guard-of-terra wrote: post #24

I say good riddance. Leave it to people who make a job out of it. We should admit it and move on, removing stuck bits of handwriting from where it doesn't belong anymore. I personally never liked writing on paper, it was ugly and time-consuming; I would never be able to express myself on paper: I'll compress the meaning away or just quit halfway through.

Yup, my typing speed is ~80 WPM and my writing speed is probably way less and not even as easy to read.

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#35

Post by ghaff » Sun, Aug 30, 2015, 2:35 AM UTC

jacobolus wrote: post #13

boken wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't assume my ignorance on other hands, or that I would argue in favor of teaching students the Palmer method. Teaching children outmoded systems ill suited to the instruments they are likely to have at hand is grossly unnecessary. (One of the reasons, incidentally, that I don't think students ought to be required to use italic nibs.) In its time, Palmer was taught under the assumption that a sizeable portio…

I wasn’t trying to disagree with your original comment, which makes great points. My point is just that Palmer’s script isn’t practical/legible in comparison to italic. It’s filled with lots of little flourishes, makes it easy to write letters in a confusable way, and is very difficult for children to learn. The capital letters in particular are ridiculous. For someone highly trained, it can be fast, but it’s not inh…

>As a curriculum/pedagogy, teachers using the Palmer method focused on drilling and discipline, the same “do it correctly or I’ll hit you” style common to instruction in the 19th and early 20th centuries.

Where early 20th century extended into at least the 1960s at one Catholic grade school I could name :-)

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#36

Post by ghaff » Sun, Aug 30, 2015, 2:41 AM UTC

kctess5 wrote: post #30

I've almost exclusively used fountain pens for about 5 years now, and it's been amazing. Modern fountain pens don't generally leak much, and they are SO much better to write with than a basic Bic/generic ballpoint. The primary difference is that you don't have to push down at all which saves your hand from a huge amount of stress after a long writing session. I really don't understand why more people don't use them t…

I tend to prefer roller ball pens but I'm pretty much a lost cause when it comes to writing at this point anyway. Handwriting was never one of my better subjects in grade school under the best of circumstances but looking through old notebooks as they progress over the years apparently reveals a general descent into total loss of right hand muscular control. :-)

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#37

Post by Frondo » Sun, Aug 30, 2015, 2:50 AM UTC

kctess5 wrote: post #30

I've almost exclusively used fountain pens for about 5 years now, and it's been amazing. Modern fountain pens don't generally leak much, and they are SO much better to write with than a basic Bic/generic ballpoint. The primary difference is that you don't have to push down at all which saves your hand from a huge amount of stress after a long writing session. I really don't understand why more people don't use them t…

Just a heads-up, Japanese import stores sell these for about 4 bucks:

http://www.gouletpens.com/Platinum-Preppy-Fountain-Pen/c/280

It's a great fountain pen for four bucks, I use them exclusively now (and don't worry too much about losing them, because four bucks!!).

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#38

Post by philwelch » Sun, Aug 30, 2015, 2:52 AM UTC

boken wrote: post #3

It is most telling, to me, to hear people (none of them made from straw) admit that writer's cramp is part and parcel of a single session of taking notes or writing an hour-long exam. Professional copyists and secretaries in the early 20th century weren't biting down on their lower lips to push through the pain every time they put pen to paper during ten- and twelve-hour workdays. They just used better tools for that…

Practice might be another aspect of this. When I was a young child, I had the ability to write longhand all day, and a callus on my middle finger where I rested my pen or pencil. As an adult, that is all gone.

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#39

Post by SteveGerencser » Sun, Aug 30, 2015, 2:56 AM UTC

colinsidoti wrote: post #16

Any lefties here? I'm a lefty and feel stuck with the basic ballpoint because any other pen I try ends up with everything smudged. Not sure if that's just poor form on my part.

I switched to Pilot Varsity disposable fountain pens a year or so ago for daily use and will never go back to a ball point pen ever again. I also switched to vertical writing a when I was very young. I could never get comfortable writing with my wrist all twisted over the top like the teachers wanted me to do. So my note pads all sit with the lines vertical and I write up.

Even worse, for my own personal note books and random writing I use steno pads and write from the bottom to the top of a page. My wife hates it because when I ask her to read something I've been working on she has a lot of trouble reading it. But I've been doing it for so long it's natural for me. If I need to share something with people I can write "normally" or type it out. But personal use my system works for me.

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#40

Post by ghaff » Sun, Aug 30, 2015, 2:56 AM UTC

boken wrote: post #3

It is most telling, to me, to hear people (none of them made from straw) admit that writer's cramp is part and parcel of a single session of taking notes or writing an hour-long exam. Professional copyists and secretaries in the early 20th century weren't biting down on their lower lips to push through the pain every time they put pen to paper during ten- and twelve-hour workdays. They just used better tools for that…

On the other hand, I certainly used ballpoint pens a lot when I was taking primarily handwritten notes or taking exams and I didn't get writer's cramp the way I do today if I write for any length of time. I never really cared for fountain pens and the mass market alternatives weren't available at the time so all the way through high school and college I mostly used ballpoints. I did type in college for papers and articles but notetaking was all by hand.