Hard Work Is Irrelevant [audio] • Hacker News Board

Re: Hard Work Is Irrelevant [audio]

#11

Post by rifung » Sat, Aug 29, 2015, 7:32 AM UTC

I actually found this.. disturbing.

I get that sometimes you have to fire people because you are running out of money. What I can't agree with is that you can just fire people and it's fine because people's careers are long and this is just another spot in their "journey". Sure, maybe a person will work at many companies over their life.

On the other hand, people work to make a living, sometimes for an entire family, and suddenly not having work can affect someone's livelihood very negatively for obvious reasons. Don't get me wrong, I understand that sometimes as a boss/manager you have to make difficult decisions for the sake of the company. But, you're just lying to yourself if you think it's not a big deal to fire someone.

Re: Hard Work Is Irrelevant [audio]

#12

Post by rifung » Sat, Aug 29, 2015, 7:33 AM UTC

greggman wrote: post #9

adevine wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for posting that - adds some context and color to what is essentially a PR story.

What about the story seemed like PR?

I thought it was bizarre how one of the hosts of the show just kept defending their behavior and kept making excuses for them. It's like they tried to spin it in a positive light even when the female host remarked and how cruel their practices are.

Just my opinion of course, but I found it a bit strange.

Re: Hard Work Is Irrelevant [audio]

#13

Post by psykotic » Sat, Aug 29, 2015, 7:47 AM UTC

rifung wrote: post #11

I actually found this.. disturbing. I get that sometimes you have to fire people because you are running out of money. What I can't agree with is that you can just fire people and it's fine because people's careers are long and this is just another spot in their "journey". Sure, maybe a person will work at many companies over their life. On the other hand, people work to make a living, sometimes for an entire family,…

I'd agree if we weren't talking about a company renowned for having among the highest base salaries in the business. Engineers who go to Netflix have a lot of other options and should know what culture they're joining.

Re: Hard Work Is Irrelevant [audio]

#14

Post by coldtea » Sat, Aug 29, 2015, 7:52 AM UTC

greggman wrote: post #8

dvt wrote: post #7

Netflix' long term view is "Look at the bigger picture" and yet their turnover rate is an abysmal 20%-25%. I fail to see how this is looking at the bigger picture. I also fail to see how you can feel passion for Netflix (one of their company values) when, as an employee, you are basically treated like a commodity. I guess this kind of culture must be great for C-level execs like Ms. McCord, but not so great for run o…

she was cut from the company herself by the very same rules

Sounds like this karma thing.

Re: Hard Work Is Irrelevant [audio]

#15

Post by codeonfire » Sat, Aug 29, 2015, 8:01 AM UTC

One thing where the Netflix system breaks down is for some reason managers are never found to be useless or relevant. It becomes a small number of individual contributors trying to support a larger and larger management base. The real reason is political. The people at the top fear people rising through the ranks so they execute people like a dictatorship. At my previous job everyone with more than 15 years of experience was pushed out and people with no experience at all were brought in. Now, no one can make the case that people with no experience were not useless. They had no skills. If it were a pro sports team, it would be like bringing in little league players. The idea is the little league-ers are so excited about being in the big leagues they don't complain about the inept coaches.

It makes perfect political sense to have high turnover. What managers will typically do is turn over the workforce, but also scale down the thing they are trying to accomplish to meet the capabilities of their little league-ers. All they want is to be able to claim a 'success' so they can get promoted. They cut the workforce down, cut the work down, but when they build the n-millionth + 1 music service or chat app they claim it is a revolution. Executive management says, "wow you created a music service, here have $500k" and the process starts again. No one has the cojones to point out that the company has inadvertently started to play little league because the executives are trying to ride successes as well.

Re: Hard Work Is Irrelevant [audio]

#16

Post by timr » Sat, Aug 29, 2015, 8:03 AM UTC

psykotic wrote: post #13

rifung wrote: post #11

I actually found this.. disturbing. I get that sometimes you have to fire people because you are running out of money. What I can't agree with is that you can just fire people and it's fine because people's careers are long and this is just another spot in their "journey". Sure, maybe a person will work at many companies over their life. On the other hand, people work to make a living, sometimes for an entire family,…

I'd agree if we weren't talking about a company renowned for having among the highest base salaries in the business. Engineers who go to Netflix have a lot of other options and should know what culture they're joining.

I knew that Netflix paid well, but I didn't know that they operated like this. After hearing the story about laying off the tech team to move to AWS...well, let's just say that the salaries I've heard wouldn't be enough. They recruit engineers like crazy, but they still couldn't find a use for their existing, high-performing team? That seems insane.

The whole time I was listening to this, I was thinking: if a company is going to treat me like a de facto contractor, shouldn't I just ask for the (much higher) hourly risk-adjusted rate I'd demand as a contractor? Why bother with the charade of full-time employment at all?

Re: Hard Work Is Irrelevant [audio]

#17

Post by jeo1234 » Sat, Aug 29, 2015, 8:03 AM UTC

dvt wrote: post #7

Netflix' long term view is "Look at the bigger picture" and yet their turnover rate is an abysmal 20%-25%. I fail to see how this is looking at the bigger picture. I also fail to see how you can feel passion for Netflix (one of their company values) when, as an employee, you are basically treated like a commodity. I guess this kind of culture must be great for C-level execs like Ms. McCord, but not so great for run o…

When you work for a company with an HR attitude like Netflix, you don't go in expecting to stay there for the next 15 years. It gives you as an employee the chance to make a pretty good living and more importantly sharpen your skills so that when you're finished there it's easy to move on. And if then you want to have a nice stable job which you can expect to stay in for the next decade, you can.

Investment banking and high-end consulting have worked on a simpler principle for a long time. When you're young you work crazy hours and get really at your job. Once you're no longer able to do that, you leave for a calmer environment.

Re: Hard Work Is Irrelevant [audio]

#18

Post by codeonfire » Sat, Aug 29, 2015, 8:19 AM UTC

psykotic wrote: post #13

rifung wrote: post #11

I actually found this.. disturbing. I get that sometimes you have to fire people because you are running out of money. What I can't agree with is that you can just fire people and it's fine because people's careers are long and this is just another spot in their "journey". Sure, maybe a person will work at many companies over their life. On the other hand, people work to make a living, sometimes for an entire family,…

I'd agree if we weren't talking about a company renowned for having among the highest base salaries in the business. Engineers who go to Netflix have a lot of other options and should know what culture they're joining.

They might pay a lot but the apartments next to their HQ cost $3300 for a 1 bedroom apartment. That only works if they don't have a family. Housing near Netflix is going to be $5k per month. Employees also have to factor in the cost of unemployment and job search, self paid insurance and medical when between jobs, self paid retirement, relocation to and away from Netflix, etc. I would put the total extra cost for the opportunity of a 12 month stint at Netflix at $50k. Maybe they pay $200-220, but they don't give stock, don't give bonuses, and you won't be taking any vacation during those 12 months.

Re: Hard Work Is Irrelevant [audio]

#19

Post by UK-AL » Sat, Aug 29, 2015, 8:35 AM UTC

jeo1234 wrote: post #17

dvt wrote: post #7

Netflix' long term view is "Look at the bigger picture" and yet their turnover rate is an abysmal 20%-25%. I fail to see how this is looking at the bigger picture. I also fail to see how you can feel passion for Netflix (one of their company values) when, as an employee, you are basically treated like a commodity. I guess this kind of culture must be great for C-level execs like Ms. McCord, but not so great for run o…

When you work for a company with an HR attitude like Netflix, you don't go in expecting to stay there for the next 15 years. It gives you as an employee the chance to make a pretty good living and more importantly sharpen your skills so that when you're finished there it's easy to move on. And if then you want to have a nice stable job which you can expect to stay in for the next decade, you can. Investment banking a…

Having worked with a lot of consultants from the big consultantancy companies I would not say they're good at they're job.

It's essentially salesman and confidence skills. They're generally no better than in house people.

Re: Hard Work Is Irrelevant [audio]

#20

Post by cbd1984 » Sat, Aug 29, 2015, 8:49 AM UTC

rifung wrote: post #11

I actually found this.. disturbing. I get that sometimes you have to fire people because you are running out of money. What I can't agree with is that you can just fire people and it's fine because people's careers are long and this is just another spot in their "journey". Sure, maybe a person will work at many companies over their life. On the other hand, people work to make a living, sometimes for an entire family,…

This is why I think improved social safety nets (not necessarily any specific scheme such as mincome or negative income tax or similar, just guarantees that nobody lives worse than some minimum) will actually save capitalism: It will free businesses from the moral quandaries expressed in your post, and enable them to make pure business decisions without having to consider the well-being of anyone involved.

The alternative is inherently unstable, socially: Once people think they have nothing to lose by tearing down the system, it gets torn down. The anti-safety-net capitalists are inadvertently creating a society which will have little to lose from destroying what they're working to build.