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Google finally responds to Europe's antitrust charges

economist.com

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Re: Google finally responds to Europe's antitrust charges

#21

Post by icehawk219 »

jbuzbee wrote: post #12
rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem wasn't just Standard Oil, it was the society around it. A purely free market society would see what the company was doing and close the books at that, but the government has a broader base of concerns. Namely, constituents of oil-producing regions who elected representatives to protect them. Think of it like Wal-Mart: it may provide jobs and cheaper goods to a community, but the wealth is a net outflow to…

> Think of it like Wal-Mart: it may provide jobs and cheaper goods to a community, but the wealth is a net outflow towards the Walton family Providing jobs and cheaper goods to the community sounds like it's putting wealth into the pockets of the community to me. If you can buy a gallon of milk for the kids cheaper at Walmart then you can at the corner store, you have extra money for school supplies, medicine, etc. >…

Except that everyone going to Wal-Mart for the cheaper goods has driven you out of a job because most of the stores in the area are now shut down and your significant other who does work at Wal-Mart makes exactly minimum wage and not a penny more. So your income is decimated and you have no extra money for school supplies, medicine, etc. Which is why the majority of Wal-Mart's employees are on government assistance. And now the rest of the community faces higher taxes to provide a greater security net. But hey, at least you saved $0.10 on that gallon of milk.

Re: Google finally responds to Europe's antitrust charges

#22

Post by rm_-rf_slash »

jbuzbee wrote: post #18
rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1: Unless Wal-Mart sells literally everything (health insurance, higher education, etc), then proprietors of other kinds of businesses will be hurt because average incomes have gone down. Milk may be cheaper but getting a contractor to tile my roof isn't. 2: Go to, say, Ravenna, Italy, and try to get a drink after midnight and on a weekday. You can't. The people there would rather all be on the same schedule (espress…

> 2: Go to, say, Ravenna, Italy Not to pick on Italy, but: http://ycharts.com/indicators/italy_youth_unemployment_rate_... So I wouldn't exactly want to model my economy on Italy. >If you're still unconvinced, ask a European... I've spent a lot of time in Europe and had long discussions in the pubs. Great times, nice folks, and I look forward to visiting again. but I still prefer the US.

You're still missing the point.

My family in Gaeta knows the economy has been rough for a while, and yet their (and Italy's) strong social ties have kept society together in ways GDP and unemployment figures can't measure.

Contrast with China, where growth is less than double digits and everybody's losing their mind. GDP doesn't explain why someone on the street dying from a car crash can be ignored by hundreds of people who walk by because they don't want to get involved in something that isn't their problem (punitive laws that potentially transfer liabilities to involved bystanders don't help).

Society is more than economy. People often choose benefits to their society that tax economic growth, like preventing acid rain. If something seems irrevocably inconsistent about someone's decision, then I question the extent to which you choose to think from their perspective.

Re: Google finally responds to Europe's antitrust charges

#23

Post by andybak »

jbuzbee wrote: post #18
rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1: Unless Wal-Mart sells literally everything (health insurance, higher education, etc), then proprietors of other kinds of businesses will be hurt because average incomes have gone down. Milk may be cheaper but getting a contractor to tile my roof isn't. 2: Go to, say, Ravenna, Italy, and try to get a drink after midnight and on a weekday. You can't. The people there would rather all be on the same schedule (espress…

> 2: Go to, say, Ravenna, Italy Not to pick on Italy, but: http://ycharts.com/indicators/italy_youth_unemployment_rate_... So I wouldn't exactly want to model my economy on Italy. >If you're still unconvinced, ask a European... I've spent a lot of time in Europe and had long discussions in the pubs. Great times, nice folks, and I look forward to visiting again. but I still prefer the US.

Just by way of comparison - Brit here. I'd choose to move to many countries over the US for various reasons:

1. Health care cost 2. Crime (especially violent and gun crime) 3. The lack of a political center ground or any sensible centrist discourse. 4. And of course - broadband and mobile data cost/speed ;-)

(* http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/United-King... - although I'm sure those statistics are massively affected by area)

Re: Google finally responds to Europe's antitrust charges

#24

Post by rm_-rf_slash »

thedevil wrote: post #20
rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google is like a convenient highway that everyone takes to work: just because there are other routes (DuckDuckGo) it doesn't mean people will take them, and regulatory framework has to, in absence of a legitimate competitor (Japan prefers Yahoo! for some reason), treat Google as a functional monopoly. Standard Oil held down prices which was good in theory for customers, but it was devastating for competitors and thei…

"Google is like a convenient highway" If I have an idea for a better highway and money to build it, I still can't just build the highway. If I have a better idea for a search engine, I could wipe out Google. Google is exposed to market forces, the highway isn't. Your analogy doesn't work at all.

And if I had an idea for a better social network, I could replace Facebook.

Just because there exists the opportunity for a competitor doesn't mean one will emerge. Until then (if it even happens!) the courts of Europe will continue to view Google as a disproportionately powerful force. Because it's an American company backed and staffed by people who fundamentally see the Internet and global economy in a different light than most Europeans (right to be forgotten, etc), Europeans have every reason to be suspicious.

Re: Google finally responds to Europe's antitrust charges

#25

Post by raldi »

lilbarbarian wrote: post #7

It should be clear to anyone paying attention that Google is using their dominance in search to support their businesses at the expense of their competitors. Just do a search for "Chicago Hotel" on a desktop browser. Unless you have a gargantuan screen, you will not see a single organic result. You will be given a list of paid ads, and then links to Google's local results. Clicking one of those local results will tak…

If you ran a search engine, what would your search results page for "chicago hotel" look like, and why would that be better for users than Google's?

Re: Google finally responds to Europe's antitrust charges

#26

Post by trothamel »

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #24
thedevil wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Google is like a convenient highway" If I have an idea for a better highway and money to build it, I still can't just build the highway. If I have a better idea for a search engine, I could wipe out Google. Google is exposed to market forces, the highway isn't. Your analogy doesn't work at all.

And if I had an idea for a better social network, I could replace Facebook. Just because there exists the opportunity for a competitor doesn't mean one will emerge. Until then (if it even happens!) the courts of Europe will continue to view Google as a disproportionately powerful force. Because it's an American company backed and staffed by people who fundamentally see the Internet and global economy in a different l…

You could replace Facebook, or Myspace, or Friendster, even.

Re: Google finally responds to Europe's antitrust charges

#27

Post by raldi »

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #24
thedevil wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Google is like a convenient highway" If I have an idea for a better highway and money to build it, I still can't just build the highway. If I have a better idea for a search engine, I could wipe out Google. Google is exposed to market forces, the highway isn't. Your analogy doesn't work at all.

And if I had an idea for a better social network, I could replace Facebook. Just because there exists the opportunity for a competitor doesn't mean one will emerge. Until then (if it even happens!) the courts of Europe will continue to view Google as a disproportionately powerful force. Because it's an American company backed and staffed by people who fundamentally see the Internet and global economy in a different l…

> And if I had an idea for a better social network, I could replace Facebook.

Not necessarily. There are gigantic network effects propping Facebook up. A Facebook user who wants to try another social network needs to convince all their friends to move. And each of them has to convince their friends.

But to try another search engine takes takes about five seconds. You could switch from Google to Bing immediately and never look back, if you thought Bing were better.

Re: Google finally responds to Europe's antitrust charges

#28

Post by makomk »

kllrnohj wrote: post #19
avmich wrote: post #2

"Google argues that the commission's proposed remedies, which include obliging its website to display ads "sourced and ranked" by rival companies, would only have a legal basis if it were a monopoly provider of essential supplies such as gas or electricity." Interesting. So, Google isn't a monopoly or web search that it provides isn't essential supply. That means, as I understand, there are plenty of comparable rival…

Important and essential have two distinctily different meanings. Also note that this is about product search not search.

It's about product search engines trying to force Google to rank them more prominently in search results. Which worries me a little, because I remember what Google's search results were like before they hit vertical search engines with the anti-spam hammer and it was an awful experience - page after page of worthless niche "search engines" all doing their best to convince you they had meaningful results, only to fail to deliver on their promise once you actually clicked the link. (Not forgetting the "review sites" with zero actual reviews.) And it didn't even matter to them because once you'd clicked, they'd made their money. Once they couldn't funnel people in through Google and had to convince users to actually search with them directly, it was the end because they had nothing worthwhile to offer.

Re: Google finally responds to Europe's antitrust charges

#29

Post by rm_-rf_slash »

raldi wrote: post #27
rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if I had an idea for a better social network, I could replace Facebook. Just because there exists the opportunity for a competitor doesn't mean one will emerge. Until then (if it even happens!) the courts of Europe will continue to view Google as a disproportionately powerful force. Because it's an American company backed and staffed by people who fundamentally see the Internet and global economy in a different l…

> And if I had an idea for a better social network, I could replace Facebook. Not necessarily. There are gigantic network effects propping Facebook up. A Facebook user who wants to try another social network needs to convince all their friends to move. And each of them has to convince their friends. But to try another search engine takes takes about five seconds. You could switch from Google to Bing immediately and n…

Well, um, that's exactly my point. It's not that I can switch to another service, it's that other people won't, unless they each have a strong reason to. So if I feel a ubiquitous web service maligns my business, I should be concerned about their power over the populace, not just me.

Re: Google finally responds to Europe's antitrust charges

#30

Post by [deleted] »

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #29
raldi wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And if I had an idea for a better social network, I could replace Facebook. Not necessarily. There are gigantic network effects propping Facebook up. A Facebook user who wants to try another social network needs to convince all their friends to move. And each of them has to convince their friends. But to try another search engine takes takes about five seconds. You could switch from Google to Bing immediately and n…

Well, um, that's exactly my point. It's not that I can switch to another service, it's that other people won't, unless they each have a strong reason to. So if I feel a ubiquitous web service maligns my business, I should be concerned about their power over the populace, not just me.

[deleted]
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