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Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their productivity

johndcook.com

61–70 of 133 posts

Re: Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their productivity

#61
post #56
post #16

The author has not ever worked with the truly 10x more productive programmers. Most people do not get the chance to work with these programmers. They do get paid in proportion to their productivity. There are so many horrible programmers that you can be mediocre and be 10x more productive than the guy next to you. Thus you think you're in the 10x crew. But you really aren't. It's not because you're really that good.…

"There are so many horrible programmers that you can be mediocre and be 10x more productive than the guy next to you. Thus you think you're in the 10x crew. But you really aren't. It's not because you're really that good. It's because the guy next to you is really that bad." So someone who is 10x more productive then their coworker isn't actually 10x more productive because their coworker is so horrible? Isn't "10x m…

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Re: Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their productivity

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I just googled the peopleware citation and it seems the study backing this often repeated claim is from the 1960s and people have plenty of questions about its methodology. I'll easily buy 2X or 3X productivity difference. I'm not buying these casually tossed off claims about 10X or 30X productivity differences without the supporting research discussed in detail front and center. Unacknowledged differences of t…

If you view computer programmers as mental ditch diggers, then the idea that one could be so much more productive than another seems crazy. But when you see it as a creative endeavor, it's completely rational that some could be orders of magnitude more productive, even infinitely so. For example, when you have a hard problem (like a networked 3d game with physics) that is beyond the abilities of a developer A (he can…

Slight nitpick: Infinite developer As will not solve the problem unless you assume that each developer can solve a finite part of the problem. If Developer A simply can't solve the problem none of them will help.

Re: Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their productivity

#63
From the article:

> someone who stares quietly into space for a few minutes

...and exactly here lies the problem. I've been fired from a job because according to an old retiree who never saw anyone programming before, "he spent his days scratching his beard and looking blankly at the screen". No mention about the job being done and the extra $1M my ideas saved. And certainly no apologies after they had to replace me by a whole external company.

Re: Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their productivity

#64
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is roughly equivalent to saying that the true measure of an employee's productivity is their salary. What are you measuring?

No, he's saying you have to take it upon yourself to turn "potential income" into "realized income".

I understand that an economist would say that exchanging intellectual property for money is the only way to measure productivity. It satisfies me about as much as measuring productivity by lines of code, and for much the same reason.

Is an architecture astronaut really more productive than a programmer just because there is some sort of perceived value within an "Enterprise Environment?" Is a programmer who switches jobs every few years--garnering a raise each time but needing a ramp-up period at each job--more productive than the one who values security more than money and stays in one place?

I don't think that when we use the phrase "programmer productivity" on HN we are talking about the same thing as an economist who talks about productivity.

Re: Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their productivity

#65
post #26
post #2

My proudest moments as a programmer are those where I manage to develop some functionality in a week or two that took another team of programmers months or years to do by using a novel approach or stitching together preexisting code. Every line of code I write is another I will have to maintain. Sooner or later it will be a burden. For this reason, I strive to write as few as possible. The programmers I respect most…

i might be proud at first, but then i would be sad to think that others have failed so terribly and with so little guidance or wisdom. i would be saddened by my pitiful pride at a product so limited by its single creator. my proudest moments are when i'm collaborating with such flow that no one knows exactly where each idea came from, and at the end we have a powerful, awesome product that none of us could have built…

You seem to have a very strict requirement for pride; I wasn't aware there was a "pitiful" tier. I feel like life would be pretty depressing if I needed to create something greater than me for the social good that had a purpose just to feel proud of my accomplishment. You can only save the whales once.

Anyway, as is the saying, "whatever gets you off". If I've managed to be particularly clever or efficient or solved a problem I haven't previously, I feel good about that. In 10 years doing this I've never collaborated on a project start to finish with other programmers but I imagine I'd feel good about that, too. I guess I just lack the ability to comprehend self-pity over a personal accomplishment.

Re: Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their productivity

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is roughly equivalent to saying that the true measure of an employee's productivity is their salary. What are you measuring?

It's measuring the amount someone is willing to pay you for your work. By an economist's definition, that's your output. If you divide your output by number of hours worked, that's your productivity, again by economist's definition. I make no claims as to how useful these definitions are. There's a reason why economics is called the dismal science. But terms like output and productivity do have accepted definitions -…

You make good points. However... if we accept the economist's definition of productivity, then the article becomes a NOOP: We measure the marketplace, we discover that given a set of programmers with roughly the same conditions, there isn't a 10x disparity in output divided by hours worked, therefore no programmer is 10x more productive.

The only way there is something to discuss is when we presume there is another measure of programmer productivity and then ask why the marketplace is so inefficient that economic productivity does not correlate with programmer productivity.

Re: Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their productivity

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's measuring the amount someone is willing to pay you for your work. By an economist's definition, that's your output. If you divide your output by number of hours worked, that's your productivity, again by economist's definition. I make no claims as to how useful these definitions are. There's a reason why economics is called the dismal science. But terms like output and productivity do have accepted definitions -…

You make good points. However... if we accept the economist's definition of productivity, then the article becomes a NOOP: We measure the marketplace, we discover that given a set of programmers with roughly the same conditions, there isn't a 10x disparity in output divided by hours worked, therefore no programmer is 10x more productive. The only way there is something to discuss is when we presume there is another m…

I think that there is easily a 10x disparity in output divided by hours worked. Why did the Etherpads just make 8 figures over the past 3 years, while I made only 6 figures? They certainly didn't work 100x more. By the economist's definition, they were easily 100x more productive.

I think that there's a more interesting question in the article - why do salaries "flatten out" the productivity curve, so that programmers who would easily be making 100x more as startup founders are instead making 50% more, with the balance going to the employer? After all, if we measure by revenue generated for the employer, I'm in at least the 7 figures, within an order of magnitude. And I doubt Aaron etc. were making all that much in salary when they were Google employees either.

I suspect the answer to this has to do with risk allocation. Because technology markets tend to be winner-take-all, there's a lot of variance in productivity that's not the result of the coder's actions. In other words, it comes down to luck, being in the right market with the right product. You can work hard at the wrong thing and still produce nothing of value, despite being smart and dedicated.

When you sign on as an employee, your employer agrees to take on the risk that you'll work hard and still nothing will come of it. And in return, they get nearly all of the upside if your hard work does result in something great.

I suspect that the 10x more productive figure is a result of sample bias: when you look at what people have done, there are some folks whose projects were 10x more useful than what other people have done. All the people who worked equally hard and produced equally large amounts of code are lumped into the "not productive" category, because in hindsight, their projects weren't all that useful. If you try to predict, a priori, who the 10x coders are, I bet you'll have a much harder time. If you don't, you have a sterling future ahead of you as a venture capitalist.

Re: Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their productivity

#68
post #56
post #16

The author has not ever worked with the truly 10x more productive programmers. Most people do not get the chance to work with these programmers. They do get paid in proportion to their productivity. There are so many horrible programmers that you can be mediocre and be 10x more productive than the guy next to you. Thus you think you're in the 10x crew. But you really aren't. It's not because you're really that good.…

"There are so many horrible programmers that you can be mediocre and be 10x more productive than the guy next to you. Thus you think you're in the 10x crew. But you really aren't. It's not because you're really that good. It's because the guy next to you is really that bad." So someone who is 10x more productive then their coworker isn't actually 10x more productive because their coworker is so horrible? Isn't "10x m…

He meant in the class of 10x better than the average programmer, which would include all developers in the world, not just the few you can see.

Re: Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their productivity

#69
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never meaningfully demonstrated? Have you tried to verify the claim? Go read Peopleware . You will find described very carefully set up coding comparisons that routinely found a factor of 10 productivity difference between different experienced programmers on the same task, and also a discussion of what organizational factors lead to those productivity differences. There is other research on the topic as well. For in…

Well, I just googled the peopleware citation and it seems the study backing this often repeated claim is from the 1960s and people have plenty of questions about its methodology. I'll easily buy 2X or 3X productivity difference. I'm not buying these casually tossed off claims about 10X or 30X productivity differences without the supporting research discussed in detail front and center. Unacknowledged differences of t…

I've experienced a 10x difference firsthand - and not against bad coders, but against average ones (they were former game developers, so they're quite possibly above average vs. the rest of the software industry). And you can slice the productivity along a bunch of different axes - systems designed and built, loc (not a great metric), complexity, features, etc - and the metrics still hold up.

That said, this order of magnitude is pretty rare (and it was against the slowest of the programmers) - but if you have a few true superstars, you can expect at least a 4x difference against the average in a group.

As far as compensation goes, at my last internet startup there was approximately a 5x difference, once you factor in bonuses. In the games industry, it was more like 2.5x.

For the worst coders, we tended to fire them after a few weeks if they somehow made it past the interview process. So there was a well-correlated difference in compensation there - we either paid them a few weeks of salary or 0$ in the latter case. :)

Re: Why programmers are not paid in proportion to their productivity

#70
post #56
post #16

The author has not ever worked with the truly 10x more productive programmers. Most people do not get the chance to work with these programmers. They do get paid in proportion to their productivity. There are so many horrible programmers that you can be mediocre and be 10x more productive than the guy next to you. Thus you think you're in the 10x crew. But you really aren't. It's not because you're really that good.…

"There are so many horrible programmers that you can be mediocre and be 10x more productive than the guy next to you. Thus you think you're in the 10x crew. But you really aren't. It's not because you're really that good. It's because the guy next to you is really that bad." So someone who is 10x more productive then their coworker isn't actually 10x more productive because their coworker is so horrible? Isn't "10x m…

Yes, the gp's argument seems to contradict itself.
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