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Debian GNU/Hurd Status Update [pdf]

people.debian.org

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Re: Debian GNU/Hurd Status Update [pdf]

#3

Post by jfaucett »

the last document linked to at the end is a really good read too - http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.37....,

Also I agree with him on the fdisk/mke2fs, I've often asked myself the exact same question. aparently, its not a so popular opinion though, since they're always tucked away in sbin...

Re: Debian GNU/Hurd Status Update [pdf]

#4

Post by mindcrime »

It's awesome to see Hurd continuing to progress. It doesn't matter that "Hurd isn't ready for mainstream use" or any of that stuff. Even if it never becomes "ready for mainstream use" it's valuable to have people experimenting and researching alternative approaches. This and Plan9 both still play important roles, and I expect that, at a minimum, developments coming out of one or both projects will continue to influence Linux and other "mainstream" OS's.

Besides, it's just plain fun to play around with operating systems. I think I have an extra box laying around here idle that would be a good place to experiment with Hurd a bit.

Re: Debian GNU/Hurd Status Update [pdf]

#5

Post by vezzy-fnord »

The preliminary rump kernel support that arrived just a bit more than a week ago is quite promising, if still quite rudimentary. That said, a patched MPlayer linking to rump libraries has been able to play OGG files on a Hurd system: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-hurd/2015-08/msg00027...

Though obviously in the very initial stages, the implications of this development taken to its end could be enormous. Have the GNU Hurd implement translator or server interfaces to the rump drivers, plug it on top of an immutable package and configuration management suite like Guix (actually already being done), and for the first time in history you have a complete, general-purpose microkernel-based Unix-compatible (but beyond plain Unix) system that could rival the likes of GNU/Linux. The great thing about it is that the Hurd isn't afraid to break POSIX semantics where beneficial. This makes it have, among other things, processes running under multiple uids, true Plan 9-style namespacing, unprivileged mounts, token-based authentication, and so forth.

I've been playing with it on-and-off (including cross-toolchains) and been pondering about Mach kernel emulation on Linux. A pure userland server would be most desirable, but faces real changes with modeling port rights as file descriptors sent over ancillary data, how to reliably handle user-level page fault handling on a per-application basis, mapping VM regions across address space boundaries and properly emulating RPC. Kip Macy did successful work on a port of OSF Mach from the MkLinux sources as a FreeBSD kernel module for use with launchd, XPC and other OS X modules, so I think that might end up being a concession I'll look into taking one day. I'm occupied with other projects in the meantime.

It'd be also funny to have Linux "eat" itself in such a manner by becoming a host for the Hurd. Poetic justice, I suppose. But I'll wait to see if the rump kernel stuff pans out first.

(MINIX 3 is great too, much better microkernel, but it's more meant for reliability rather than exposing end-user flexibility like Hurd does with translators. It also doesn't come close to the ~81% of Debian building as is with Hurd, and the MINIX devs themselves are positioning it as an embedded platform rather than general-purpose.)

Re: Debian GNU/Hurd Status Update [pdf]

#6

Post by nextos »

vezzy-fnord wrote: post #5

The preliminary rump kernel support that arrived just a bit more than a week ago is quite promising, if still quite rudimentary. That said, a patched MPlayer linking to rump libraries has been able to play OGG files on a Hurd system: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-hurd/2015-08/msg00027... Though obviously in the very initial stages, the implications of this development taken to its end could be enormous. Have…

Guix is becoming increasingly ready for prime time. There's one big HPC install in Germany already running it. I think it's past the toy stage.

I guess Guix + Hurd is a great setup, with innovative features in the kernel and userland. Both very pure in their respective ways, with Guix having functional package management, and Hurd keeping the kernel minimal so that crashes or security breaches are not catastrophic.

Re: Debian GNU/Hurd Status Update [pdf]

#9

Post by koenigdavidmj »

jasonoliveira wrote: post #8

● Top dumb issues ● Not linux or BSD? #include can someone explain the above to me? the slides didn't make sense.

Poorly written preprocessor bits in C code that assume that anything anyone ever runs is either Linux, BSD (including OS X), or Windows. They basically write the following:

  #ifdef LINUX
  // include Linux headers
  #elif defined(BSD)
  // include BSD headers
  #else
  // include Windows headers. What else would it possibly be?
  #endif
The "mach.h" one is similar: people make a bad assumption that OS X is the only Mach kernel people use. (Hurd is obviously a counterpoint, just an unpopular one.)

Re: Debian GNU/Hurd Status Update [pdf]

#10

Post by jakeogh »

vezzy-fnord wrote: post #5

The preliminary rump kernel support that arrived just a bit more than a week ago is quite promising, if still quite rudimentary. That said, a patched MPlayer linking to rump libraries has been able to play OGG files on a Hurd system: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-hurd/2015-08/msg00027... Though obviously in the very initial stages, the implications of this development taken to its end could be enormous. Have…

Exciting! "processes running under multiple uids" Why?
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