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Where should the “6” key be?

ultimatehackingkeyboard.com

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Re: Where should the “6” key be?

#41

Post by pluma »

Tehnix wrote: post #16
jwr wrote: post #4

A side comment, as it's the first time I see the "ultimate hacking keyboard": Whenever I see a keyboard with an "Fn" key, I sigh. This means that the designer of the keyboard thought he knows better which functions I need and took valuable space in the modifier row for a key which I will probably never use. Media control functions? Come on. Most keyboards that have an "Fn" key do not allow you to remap it in any way…

I actually use media control keys very often when playing music on my laptop, much much quicker than going into an app first. I actually like the how OS X by default uses the fn functionality, and you press fn to access f1, f2 etc.. Except for very few games, I never actually use those keys anyways. And even then I use something like Palua[0] to automatically enable/disable the fn key based on the app that is current…

Having to press three keys for a force reload (Ctrl+F5 on Windows/Linux) seems incredibly awkward.

I can't really imagine living without F5, F11 or F12 as a web developer.

Re: Where should the “6” key be?

#42

Post by melling »

anon4 wrote: post #11

After investing in a Truly Ergonomic[0] keyboard, I personally don't want ever again to use a keyboard with asymmetrically staggered keys. Having a perfectly mirrored layout is much nicer to use. The 6 on it is on the right, if that matters. [0] That's the brand name, it's not really truly ergonomic, or at least not as designed for ergonomics as a Kinesis. Homepage/store: http://www.trulyergonomic.com

My TEK stopped registering certain keys, like the arrow keys. Wasn't sure if it's a Mac issue. I bought the Model 01 on Kickstarter which ships next year.

I've got tons of keyboard notes: http://thespanishsite.com/public_html/org/ergo/keyboards.htm...

And I wrote a small blog on Ergonomic keyboards:

https://h4labs.wordpress.com/2015/07/16/the-model-01-an-heir...

For something we use 8-20 hours a day, keyboards should evolve a little more.

I've read so many RSI stories it's scary:

http://markmcb.com/2014/10/13/severe-hand-rsi-pain-and-recov...

https://24ways.org/2014/dont-push-through-the-pain/

http://www.looknohands.me

Re: Where should the “6” key be?

#43

Post by pluma »

DanBC wrote: post #28
mahouse wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Whenever I see a keyboard with an "Fn" key, I sigh. This means that the designer of the keyboard thought he knows better which functions I need and took valuable space in the modifier row for a key which I will probably never use. And what tells you they won't make this key configurable? Nothing. > Media control functions? Come on. Most people listen to music, you know. It's certainly not crazy to have them on ever…

The FN key, especially on laptops, is not something the OS has any control over. A few laptops have a bios setting to allow swapping fn and ctrl buttons, but not all of them. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/514781/intercepting-the-f...

The Truly Ergonomic Keyboard (linked elsewhere in the thread) provides a software tool to reconfigure the keyboard's firmware. I don't see how the manufacture couldn't provide something like this to also configure the Fn key combos.

I prefer firmware configuration over software anyway -- it lets you re-use the same keyboard with different computers or when dual booting.

Re: Where should the “6” key be?

#44

Post by Matthias247 »

pluma wrote: post #41
Tehnix wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually use media control keys very often when playing music on my laptop, much much quicker than going into an app first. I actually like the how OS X by default uses the fn functionality, and you press fn to access f1, f2 etc.. Except for very few games, I never actually use those keys anyways. And even then I use something like Palua[0] to automatically enable/disable the fn key based on the app that is current…

Having to press three keys for a force reload (Ctrl+F5 on Windows/Linux) seems incredibly awkward. I can't really imagine living without F5, F11 or F12 as a web developer.

For force reload in prefer Ctrl/Cmd-R in the meantime. Although it's more keys to press than F5 I still find it to be more comfortable because I need to move fingers less.

However I agree that software development without function keys would suck (IDE shortcuts, debugger, control, etc.)

Re: Where should the “6” key be?

#45

Post by e28eta »

Interestingly, the iPad split (software) keyboard chose "both". For en-US (I don't know if it varies by region), the 6 key is drawn on the right side. However, you can happily tap where it would be with your left index finger and it'll type a 6.

Re: Where should the “6” key be?

#46

Post by jwr »

mondalaci wrote: post #30
ueie wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't notice anywhere in the description which clarifies if the Fn key itself can be changed to, say, ctrl or alt. I also would avoid this (otherwise nice) keyboard if Fn could not be changed to a standard modifier.

As the lead developer of the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard I can confirm that the Fn key can be reprogrammed just like any other key. You can make Backspace emit Ctrl, Enter emit Alt+Tab, or make the Right Shift play back a macro.

Thanks for the clarification! This is very reassuring. I would suggest that you explicitly state this on your web page — as this thread shows, I wasn't the only one being suspicious of the 'Fn' key. We've been burned too many times.

Re: Where should the “6” key be?

#47

Post by jwr »

542458 wrote: post #27
ueie wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could have set up those media keyboard shortcuts yourself at the software level. The problem with the Fn key is that it, itself, typically cannot be reassigned.

It is possible to remap pretty much any OS X key with the help of a utility like Karabiner.

Incidentally, if you try to do this with the Caps Lock key on an aluminum Apple keyboard, you will (painfully) discover, that this key has a built-in hardware delay.

Remapping it to Control (as most normal people do) means that some of your control combinations will miss, also under Windows (it's really a hardware thing).

Re: Where should the “6” key be?

#48

Post by DanBC »

542458 wrote: post #27
ueie wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could have set up those media keyboard shortcuts yourself at the software level. The problem with the Fn key is that it, itself, typically cannot be reassigned.

It is possible to remap pretty much any OS X key with the help of a utility like Karabiner.

On Apple hardware? Sure, probably. On other hardware on an Apple machine? It depends.

https://pqrs.org/osx/karabiner/faq.html.en

Re: Where should the “6” key be?

#49

Post by nightcracker »

I don't think removing the F row is wise or defendable. Personally I use the Keycool 84 which has a really interesting layout: http://i45.tinypic.com/1z3bdkp.jpg

Whether or not you like what the Keycool 84 does on the right hand side with the arrow keys and Home/End etc, it should be fairly obvious that there's no real benefit to removing the F row.

Re: Where should the “6” key be?

#50

Post by jacobolus »

A while ago, I wrote a post about this over at Geekhack, which I’ll copy here https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=66322.msg1566004#msg156...

(go to that link if you want to see images inline)

* * *

Edgar Matias wrote (context: Matias’s Ergo Pro keyboard puts the 6 key on the right hand):

> That's true, but it is consistent with the typing textbooks I've seen. It's been a while since I researched this stuff. We can get a quick & dirty estimate using Google... http://www.google.ca/search?q=fingers+used+to+touch+type&tbm...

When I search for “touch typing” in Google images (this query is a bit more effective than the one you suggested, which quickly devolves into irrelevant images after the first page or so), the first several examples are either on Wikipedia or copies of images that originally came from Wikipedia / Wikimedia commons. After that, there seem to be a bunch of examples each way. A sampling of the ones with 6 on the left hand:

http://i.imgur.com/p0dE8wo.jpg http://i.imgur.com/UzgxGmz.jpg http://i.imgur.com/7FFd9pv.jpg http://i.imgur.com/qA8s3X9.jpg http://i.imgur.com/mNE0Fhx.jpg http://i.imgur.com/KarYUjV.jpg http://i.imgur.com/mUY5aNM.jpg http://i.imgur.com/fQx1h3N.jpg http://i.imgur.com/qT0iUO3.jpg http://i.imgur.com/wY33abR.jpg http://i.imgur.com/SL7W4mi.jpg http://i.imgur.com/ccDqf8c.jpg

(Again, there is a similar variety of diagrams that put 6 on the right hand.)

Matias again:

> While there are a few guides that deviate from the standard approach, the trend is pretty clear. Again, I'm not disputing anyone's particular technique (whatever works for you) but there is an established standard. You can choose to follow it or ignore it. I chose to follow it. Microsoft ignored it.

To be as generous as I can: you’re greatly exaggerating how “established” this “standard” is.

On the one hand, the original touch typing book from 1889 does put 6 on the right: http://i.imgur.com/iK8WNJp.png

On the other hand, here’s a book from 1893: http://i.imgur.com/LyqyQ9M.png

As for my personal technique.... The way I type on a QWERTY/ANSI/IBM keyboard – and I would strongly advise anyone else to use a similar fingering – is roughly like this: http://i.imgur.com/oTgR4Kq.png

Typing “Z” with the ring finger, “X” with the middle finger, and “C” with the index finger allows the left wrist to stay straight, with the arm coming toward the keyboard at an angle, and makes it dramatically easier and more comfortable to press all the keys on the left of the bottom row.

But this mainly serves to highlight how terrible the QWERTY/ANSI/IBM layout is. On the upside, it’s ubiquitous. On the downside, almost everything about its design is anachronistic nonsense.

Side note: this is sure a funny method: https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8404/8636675817_5398c6aba6.jp...

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