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Abandoning the Work I Hated

opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com

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Re: Abandoning the Work I Hated

#31

Post by dghf »

frobozz wrote: post #30
dghf wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you tell us how you know that some people found not guilty really were guilty? Was it a case of the jury thinking that the accused was more likely guilty than not, but there was still reasonable doubt? Or did the accused admit to an act which many laypeople would consider a crime, but then got acquitted on a technicality? Or were you privy to information and insight denied to your fellow jurors?

> repeat offenders ... actual criminals being found "not guilty" One does not have to be guilty of the crime for which one is being tried, to be a criminal. Regardless of the result, if a repeat offender is on trial, then there is a criminal in the dock. If said repeat offender is found not guilty, then, regardless of actual guilt of the offence in question, a criminal has been found "not guilty". However, it would b…

If your interpretation of angdis' comment is correct, I'm even more at a loss. What is wrong with people being found not guilty of one offence even though they've previously been convicted of others? In what way is it an example of justice not being served?

Re: Abandoning the Work I Hated

#32

Post by gunsofbrixton »

saiya-jin wrote: post #20
toothbrush wrote: post #13

While i wouldn't personally become a clown (matter of preference), i really admire this guy's courage. I frequently think about upping and leaving the security of a cushy job, and it's a lot easier said than done. Freedom is scary!

nah, it isn't. just the first step towards it is hardest. each next one is more and more simple, but we tend to create mental barriers to protect our comfort zone, maybe remnant from times when life was more about plain old survival

uh yes, it is.

Re: Abandoning the Work I Hated

#33

Post by gunsofbrixton »

saiya-jin wrote: post #19
collyw wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"just making a lot of money keeping actual criminals out of prison". If the defendants were not found guilty then they are not "criminals". Unless you were in court then you really ought not to judge. (Though I am aware the the American justice system is probably way less perfect than it claims to be).

person committing a crime is a criminal, no matter if justice system finds him guilty (I mean come on, we all know similar cases). reciting some law textbooks seems a bit ridiculous in face of reality

what is "reality"? the law is what makes someone a "criminal". the law is what determines if that person committed a crime. not "whatever saiya-jin seems to believe is reality", which is an awfully frightening idea given the nonsense you have been spouting.

Re: Abandoning the Work I Hated

#34

Post by frobozz »

dghf wrote: post #31
frobozz wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> repeat offenders ... actual criminals being found "not guilty" One does not have to be guilty of the crime for which one is being tried, to be a criminal. Regardless of the result, if a repeat offender is on trial, then there is a criminal in the dock. If said repeat offender is found not guilty, then, regardless of actual guilt of the offence in question, a criminal has been found "not guilty". However, it would b…

If your interpretation of angdis' comment is correct, I'm even more at a loss. What is wrong with people being found not guilty of one offence even though they've previously been convicted of others? In what way is it an example of justice not being served?

angdis doesn't say that the correct acquittal of repeat offenders is not justice being served, just that the total number of acquittals of criminals is greater than the total number of times that justice is served.

Justice is the sum of all correct results. (i.e. where the accused is guilty and found guilty, and where the accused is innocent and found not guilty)

The number of Criminals found not guilty is the sum of all incorrect acquittals of all offenders (guilty but found not guilty), and correct acquittals of repeat offenders.

Consider an example: Given 10 trials of repeat offenders, made up of 5 guilty and 5 innocent.

If every trial ends with the correct result, then justice has been served 10 times, and 5 criminals have been found not guilty.

However, If they are all found not guilty, then justice has been served 5 times, but 10 criminals have been found not guilty.

Re: Abandoning the Work I Hated

#35

Post by ommunist »

marincounty wrote: post #28
ommunist wrote: post #14

If this is true, he is one of the most courageous guys in Americas.

Becoming a lawyer is different than let's say becoming a doctor. The lawyers I know barely make a living. The profession is not the ticket to "the good life", like it was in the 50's. I don't know what school he graduated from. Why he ended up as a criminal attorney? How good/ethical of an attorney he was? (I throw in ethical because it's not judged by the typical client, like I feel it should? Maybe, their really is…

He cannot go back. Competition will immediately portray him in local press as a clown.

Re: Abandoning the Work I Hated

#36

Post by dghf »

frobozz wrote: post #34
dghf wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your interpretation of angdis' comment is correct, I'm even more at a loss. What is wrong with people being found not guilty of one offence even though they've previously been convicted of others? In what way is it an example of justice not being served?

angdis doesn't say that the correct acquittal of repeat offenders is not justice being served, just that the total number of acquittals of criminals is greater than the total number of times that justice is served. Justice is the sum of all correct results. (i.e. where the accused is guilty and found guilty, and where the accused is innocent and found not guilty) The number of Criminals found not guilty is the sum of…

In that case, and assuming (1) the correctness of angdis' contention that criminals are found not guilty more often than justice is served and (2) a conviction rate of at least two-thirds in the court system he/she is talking about (which is not a high bar), there are more wrongful convictions than correct ones.

Re: Abandoning the Work I Hated

#37

Post by traduz »

616c wrote: post #25

I have a kid. And that is the only reason I do not abandon my pointless work. Anyone like this do it, and survive? I would love to see more motivational stories. Those who transitioned to professional clown work appreciated!

I just switched jobs because of my daughter. Left a job that I liked but didn't pay very well so I could stop having to work 2 shifts. I'm a programmer btw. It drives me nuts everyday, but this keeps me going https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/ab/Simpson...

Re: Abandoning the Work I Hated

#38

Post by frobozz »

dghf wrote: post #36
frobozz wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

angdis doesn't say that the correct acquittal of repeat offenders is not justice being served, just that the total number of acquittals of criminals is greater than the total number of times that justice is served. Justice is the sum of all correct results. (i.e. where the accused is guilty and found guilty, and where the accused is innocent and found not guilty) The number of Criminals found not guilty is the sum of…

In that case, and assuming (1) the correctness of angdis' contention that criminals are found not guilty more often than justice is served and (2) a conviction rate of at least two-thirds in the court system he/she is talking about (which is not a high bar), there are more wrongful convictions than correct ones.

Yes, given 9 cases, and 3 wrongful acquittals, the remaining 6 guilty verdicts can have at most 2 instances of justice being done (i.e. true positives), meaning that the remaining 4 are false convictions. If any of those acquittals were the correct result, then even more people need to do porridge in order to make angdis' assertion correct.

I'm not saying that angdis isn't wrong, just that you seemed to be rebutting the wrong point. In fact, as I stated in my first response, proving the assertion requires information that one simply couldn't have, i.e. a chart of actual guilt vs verdict. Plenty of guilty convicts will protest their innocence, and no one, having been acquitted, will then go on to say, "Well, actually, I did it, so long suckers!" I'd add that, as you point out, this is a pretty outrageous claim, so the burden of proof truly lies with the one making it.

In fact, I've oversimplified, because there was actually another clause in angdis' original assertion, "or guilty and given probation (nothing)", this adds another set of results to the group that makes up the "more than justice" list: any probation sentence, which could be an appropriate sentence for the convict (which is justice, so it cancels out), repeat offenders being found guilty of a crime of which they are innocent, but sentenced appropriately for the charge (not justice, but also still a guilty verdict) or inappropriately lenient ( not justice). By making the latter claim, one is declaring oneself a greater authority on sentencing and its goals and outcomes than the judges whose business it is to know all about sentencing.

This means that false guilty verdicts for minor crimes could still go on the left, if the accused is a criminal.

Re: Abandoning the Work I Hated

#39

Post by dghf »

dghf wrote: post #36
frobozz wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

angdis doesn't say that the correct acquittal of repeat offenders is not justice being served, just that the total number of acquittals of criminals is greater than the total number of times that justice is served. Justice is the sum of all correct results. (i.e. where the accused is guilty and found guilty, and where the accused is innocent and found not guilty) The number of Criminals found not guilty is the sum of…

In that case, and assuming (1) the correctness of angdis' contention that criminals are found not guilty more often than justice is served and (2) a conviction rate of at least two-thirds in the court system he/she is talking about (which is not a high bar), there are more wrongful convictions than correct ones.

[Replying to myself r/than frozbozz as I seem to have hit some kind of nesting limit.]

> just that you seemed to be rebutting the wrong point

It's more that I'm questioning the interpretation you've put on angdis' initial comment. Your logic is impeccable, but it leads to conclusions that are so at odds with the tone of his/her post that I feel you are crediting him/her with too much coherence and consistency.

Re: Abandoning the Work I Hated

#40

Post by j_s »

616c wrote: post #25

I have a kid. And that is the only reason I do not abandon my pointless work. Anyone like this do it, and survive? I would love to see more motivational stories. Those who transitioned to professional clown work appreciated!

I'd recommend asking for all stores - both successes and failures. It's most helpful if you have the full picture!
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