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Ask HN: After 20 years of programming, what do I do now?

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Re: Ask HN: After 20 years of programming, what do I do now?

#71

Post by yareally »

RefactorCareer wrote: post #29
house9-2 wrote: post #22

You might be interested in https://info.covermymeds.com/ruby/ Ruby on Rails opportunity for java and .net developers; note:I am not affiliated with covermymeds, heard about it on the Ruby Rogues podcast.

Thanks, will check them out.

My brother has worked for them for 4-5 years now. It's a nice place to work and has a great culture after visiting there a few times and once for lunch. One of the few places I'd consider working for in Columbus as a developer without having to do a lot of heavy investigating.

I don't work there myself, though we have a fairly similar culture at my work, just no free lunches everyday.

Re: Ask HN: After 20 years of programming, what do I do now?

#72

Post by liquidcool »

busterarm wrote: post #30
atwebb wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To add onto this, being a "developer DBA" can be clutch. OP has a background in application programming and can relate to other groups a lot easier and inherently understand pain points and reasoning behind certain architecture decisions.

As a young-ish developer mostly interested in database and backend work, what skills/path would you say is necessary to function in a full-fledged DBA role? I'm finding in my contracting work that my database skills are above-average and usually one of the big things that I'm relied upon for and I think this is worth pursuing.

One thing to explore is reporting. Reporting on large enough data, putting into a data warehouse/star schema, etc., gets you into "business intelligence" territory. That puts you in touch with a lot of managers, providing clear value. Data visualization (dashboards) can be fun, too.

Re: Ask HN: After 20 years of programming, what do I do now?

#73

Post by pknerd »

I'd suggest you to learn and share your progress with outer world via blog. You could have at least 2 advantage:

- You are going to present yourself an authority after certain period of time.

- Learning new technology and be accountable to outer world.

This is what I have been doing on my blog(http://blog.adnansiddiqi.me/)

If you want, you may make guest posts related to things you are learning.

Re: Ask HN: After 20 years of programming, what do I do now?

#74

Post by RefactorCareer »

scarface74 wrote: post #68
ianphughes wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have programmed on all kinds of stacks, and while I understand a lot of the .NET disdain, I’m perplexed by perceptions that years of .NET experience is somehow worthless or less than noteworthy? Beyond the stigma of being a Microsoft product, there seems to be a misconception that .NET devs are dragging and dropping junk through an IDE. Why wouldn’t their "12 years of ASP" include obtaining good debugging habits, w…

I don't think it's a disdain for .Net. It's more of a disdain for ASP.Net Webforms. I'm definitely not a youngster (I'm 41). But he's been doing Asp.Net Webforms for 12 years. He hasn't shown a "knack for constant improvement". He hasn't been keeping up with the frameworks and technologies that MS has been pushing - Asp.Net MVC, WebApi, Entity Framework, etc. If he has been doing WebForms instead of MVC, he's probabl…

I just wanted to add that I do have professional WebApi, Angular and JQuery work on my resume, but the big thing that seems to be the blocking point is MVC. I don't code traditional webforms development anymore (I don't use controls anymore, it's more JS calling json services), but there's no resume-friendly name for it because I'm not using a specific framework, and I'm guessing that to an HR person, all that means is "not MVC".

It's a crap-shoot on which technology is going to take off. Microsoft was pushing heavily that MVC was just another way to do things during the events I went to. I tried to push the boundaries of what my company let me work in, and that just happened to not be where the market went.

In hindsight, keeping my eye open on the job market is something I should have done more.

Re: Ask HN: After 20 years of programming, what do I do now?

#75

Post by RefactorCareer »

matwood wrote: post #61
busterarm wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Years ago I worked at a financial that had a large tech staff but we only had one full-time DBA. He was a really young, sharp guy and he got to work with basically every department in the company helping them out with stuff. He had his own office, nobody ever disturbed him, he only had to report to one person (rarely) and he got paid fantastically well. Looked like a sweet deal.

I've been a DBA officially and unofficially off and on my whole career. On one hand it is great. UIs and front end software is like fashion and always changing. What lives on is the data those programs generate. Understanding that the data will outlive almost any program put in front of is a good thing to remember. On the other hand there is a lot of pressure as the DBA. Backups, redundancy, security, etc... all fall…

I've had unofficial DBAs roles in the past, and it wasn't really the type of job that suited me personally (I like UI work as much as db work). I know they're in big demand though, so definitely a good path to look into if you're okay with all of the things listed.

Re: Ask HN: After 20 years of programming, what do I do now?

#76

Post by RefactorCareer »

redidas wrote: post #56
rue wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The good ones will learn whatever tools are necessary for the job. The good companies know this. The HR barrier is admittedly present in a lot of places… the best advice there, probably, is to try to network a little to get in through the side door.

That HR barrier is really difficult to understand. There are so many libraries and frameworks these days, and companies are looking for a person with particular experience in a particular combination of things. It doesn't seem to matter if you know similar tech and are willing to switch over. I wonder how much good talent is never even looked at because of this.

I know there was the developer agent idea (agent like an entertainment agent) floating around several years back. But this area really seems like an industry ripe for innovation. Starfighters.io has a take on the security world, but anyone out there looking for a business idea: there seems to be a large group of talented engineers out there who are being passed over by HR systems today.

Re: Ask HN: After 20 years of programming, what do I do now?

#77

Post by RefactorCareer »

dwharrison wrote: post #63

I've found myself where you are at multiple points in my career. And each time, I made a leap to a new domain. Not wildly, but to an immediately adjacent domain that excited me. With 20 years of experience you potentially bring far more to the table than "just" your dev skills. The great thing about being a developer is that you touch a lot of other domains...often at a fairly detailed level of understanding (I learn…

I'm not necessarily afraid to jump out of the box, I'm just unsure which direction to jump. I could work myself into a product manager (I've done stints to fill in for short staff), but I guess it would take some research to see if reinventing myself in any specific direction is worth the effort in the long run, because in the short term, I expect to not be considered for a senior-level in that position, same as with any other development skill.

But you mention "adopting entirely new strategies for finding where your skills have value...those types of jobs aren't posted on HR job boards.", which would bypass the HR filter that I would worry about. Do you have any examples of these types of strategies? Is it more of networking? Cold calling into industries you've worked in? Anything that works for people who aren't natural sellers?

Re: Ask HN: After 20 years of programming, what do I do now?

#78

Post by dwharrison »

RefactorCareer wrote: post #77
dwharrison wrote: post #63

I've found myself where you are at multiple points in my career. And each time, I made a leap to a new domain. Not wildly, but to an immediately adjacent domain that excited me. With 20 years of experience you potentially bring far more to the table than "just" your dev skills. The great thing about being a developer is that you touch a lot of other domains...often at a fairly detailed level of understanding (I learn…

I'm not necessarily afraid to jump out of the box, I'm just unsure which direction to jump. I could work myself into a product manager (I've done stints to fill in for short staff), but I guess it would take some research to see if reinventing myself in any specific direction is worth the effort in the long run, because in the short term, I expect to not be considered for a senior-level in that position, same as with…

I've held 6 "normal" jobs (W-2 employee) in my career. I've never submitted an unsolicited resume or a CV...I've never gone through HR (except for onboarding after I was hired). I was asked to join and worked from the beginning directly with manager (or board of directors) that I'd be reporting to.

Here's the dirty secret: A hiring manager ALWAYS has more political power than ANYONE in HR. But in larger organizations hiring managers are also very risk averse (and political cowards) and therefore will always defer to HR. This is why HR is so out of control in most companies!

So either avoid large organizations and focus on startup, growth phase and SMB companies...or find a way to directly reach the ear of the hiring managers in a manner that reduces their level of perceived risk in choosing you.

Here are strategies I've used:

1. First understand how businesses and hiring managers perceive value (it's NOT as obvious as you might think!)

Then:

2. Write - blogs, articles, comments in places like LinkedIn groups where hiring managers might be loitering

3. Talk - conference talks, training, do a podcast, do webinars...but always with an eye towards message and audience (junior programmers will NOT be hiring you)

4. Network - take any opportunity to be visible and demonstrate expertise and knowledge. And tell everyone you know what it is you're looking for.

It not unlike marketing a product. Find where the audience hangs out, figure out what they value, and then communicate that value and be visible.

This isn't a "next week" solution, but could certainly be a 90-120 day solution!

As an example of one possible direction, I've seen some awesome product managers that came out of development. Did they have the Marketing degree or the 20 years of experience...NO!

But brought a unique understanding of how products were built and how to communicate the needs of the business back to the development team in a way that NO non-technical person would ever be capable of doing.

So don't compare yourself apples-to-apples with those already in the job (whatever role you're shooting for). In a certain sense, you have to BE what you want to become, even before you get there.

The truth is, there's nothing easier than doing tomorrow whatever it was that you did today and yesterday. Change is hard, and the hardest part of change is mastering the interior game. Knowing what you want and becoming that person.

Re: Ask HN: After 20 years of programming, what do I do now?

#79

Post by daxfohl »

RefactorCareer wrote: post #74
scarface74 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's a disdain for .Net. It's more of a disdain for ASP.Net Webforms. I'm definitely not a youngster (I'm 41). But he's been doing Asp.Net Webforms for 12 years. He hasn't shown a "knack for constant improvement". He hasn't been keeping up with the frameworks and technologies that MS has been pushing - Asp.Net MVC, WebApi, Entity Framework, etc. If he has been doing WebForms instead of MVC, he's probabl…

I just wanted to add that I do have professional WebApi, Angular and JQuery work on my resume, but the big thing that seems to be the blocking point is MVC. I don't code traditional webforms development anymore (I don't use controls anymore, it's more JS calling json services), but there's no resume-friendly name for it because I'm not using a specific framework, and I'm guessing that to an HR person, all that means…

Another honest assessment: if MVC is the only thing blocking you from various better positions, just say you've got it on your resume. Then spend a couple days after work going through MVC tutorials. "New Project->Web->MVC->OK. F5." Bam, you've got MVC experience.

Seriously it's way easier than webforms so if you've got that much webforms experience, you'll have absolutely no problem picking it up. Within a week you'll know 95% of what you'd need to know on most tech interviews and you'll do fine at your new job. Stuff varies so much company-to-company that MVC will not even be one of the top five differences.

In my previous response I was thinking more you were looking for some big change into something very cutting-edge. That would be a more difficult proposition. But if you're just looking to go from webforms to MVC, or even to a Java-based infrastructure, it's not a big hurdle. Like others have said, the HR filter will be the biggest problem. There will be an age bias too, you'll just have to deal with that.

FWIW I don't think you should expect a paycut or a cut in "rank" either just because of changing technologies. You'll get caught up on the technical side very quickly. Outside of extremely technical companies, "rank" is far more about knowing how to get through a release cycle coordinate teams than it is about specific technical knowledge.

All that said, just be warned, working on websites in MVC (or really any technology) is really no more interesting than Webforms. (In fact webforms may be more interesting because you get to invent your own way around its inadequacies).

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