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My Amazon Burnout Experience

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Re: My Amazon Burnout Experience

#71

It seems obvious that this person is aware they don't work well with others, and actively refuses to try to do better -- while writing a self-aggrandizing story about how he is both the smartest person in the room and most everyone around him was an idiot. He seems to believe there was no one else smart at Amazon either, and all projects that 'got in his way' were created my simple minded peons. This type of retrospe…

Your post is a prime example of what is wrong with Amazon - I'm not sure if you were aware of the irony when you wrote it. If the author is capable of developing systems that save the company hundreds of millions of dollars per year, why the fuck does it matter if they are a "great person to work with"?

>> why the fuck does it matter if they are a "great person to work with"

Cause no one wants to work with an asshole, no matter how smart they are. There's plenty of other engineers out there that can build systems and save money, maybe not to the specific degree that OP claims to be able to, but unlike OP they'll work with their team.

Re: My Amazon Burnout Experience

#72

I'm familiar with a high-level executive assistant at Amazon, and they are well aware of the "burnouts". It's very intentional. Amazon is acquiring young talent, extracting as much value from them, and making no efforts to retain them. Among the local tech scene in Seattle, there's a quiet view that Amazon is kind of a boot camp where young workers get experience then move on.

Cut off their H1B access, then. They clearly don't believe in a shortage of tech talent since they make no effort to retain it.

If talent is so plentiful they can dispose of it without care, they don't need to be importing it.

Re: My Amazon Burnout Experience

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your post is a prime example of what is wrong with Amazon - I'm not sure if you were aware of the irony when you wrote it. If the author is capable of developing systems that save the company hundreds of millions of dollars per year, why the fuck does it matter if they are a "great person to work with"?

> If the author is capable of developing systems that save the company hundreds of millions of dollars per year, why the fuck does it matter if they are a "great person to work with"? If the author is a narcissist, they would be mistaken about saving the company hundreds of millions of dollars per year. Remember, this is from the author's point of view. Allegedly, he was working with PH.Ds and others who disagreed wi…

Sure.

But, maybe you can try to recall all the other people saying pretty much the same thing about working for amazon? Does that help you judge this post a little more favourably/give it more credence?

Re: My Amazon Burnout Experience

#74
post #49

It seems obvious that this person is aware they don't work well with others, and actively refuses to try to do better -- while writing a self-aggrandizing story about how he is both the smartest person in the room and most everyone around him was an idiot. He seems to believe there was no one else smart at Amazon either, and all projects that 'got in his way' were created my simple minded peons. This type of retrospe…

I stopped reading a few paragraphs in when all the author had managed to convey was how great they are. I also find it strange that someone so competent who wants to remain anonymous would reveal so much information about their situation in the company. What little I read seems like it would be enough to pinpoint them within the organization.

Hopefully enough has been altered that they can't be identified too easily. That said, it looks like they can, maybe should find better elsewhere.

Re: My Amazon Burnout Experience

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your post is a prime example of what is wrong with Amazon - I'm not sure if you were aware of the irony when you wrote it. If the author is capable of developing systems that save the company hundreds of millions of dollars per year, why the fuck does it matter if they are a "great person to work with"?

> If the author is capable of developing systems that save the company hundreds of millions of dollars per year, why the fuck does it matter if they are a "great person to work with"? If the author is a narcissist, they would be mistaken about saving the company hundreds of millions of dollars per year. Remember, this is from the author's point of view. Allegedly, he was working with PH.Ds and others who disagreed wi…

There is absolutely no evidence here that they have dunning krugers.

In fact, their continued employment at a company that routinely cuts the lower performers is probably evidence against them having dunning krugers.

Re: My Amazon Burnout Experience

#76
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the author is capable of developing systems that save the company hundreds of millions of dollars per year, why the fuck does it matter if they are a "great person to work with"? If the author is a narcissist, they would be mistaken about saving the company hundreds of millions of dollars per year. Remember, this is from the author's point of view. Allegedly, he was working with PH.Ds and others who disagreed wi…

Sure. But, maybe you can try to recall all the other people saying pretty much the same thing about working for amazon? Does that help you judge this post a little more favourably/give it more credence?

Nope.

Anyone who has worked in this industry knows that middle management can make or break a team. All that the news has told me is that some middle management at Amazon sucks.

Which is true for all companies. Some middle managers are absolutely awful at their job. The engineers then blame the company in its entirety, not realizing that it was their direct supervisors who were messing up.

I'm sure Amazon has their fair share of awful managers. But all companies do.

Honestly, a professional would write up specifics beyond "My analysis says that I saved millions of dollars but no one else on my team believed my numbers".

Which is the crux of his entire argument unfortunately. I don't see anything here about awful bosses micromanaging him. I don't see him mentioning the turnover of his team (My sister had an awful boss. Her entire team left within 6 months. She was the last one to get out about a year later. The entire team took a paycut to leave for another company)

I know what awful bosses sound like. Failing to give a promotion to one dude who self-thought he was doing good is not necessarily indicative of a mistake.

Tell me the numbers. How many team members (or what percent) has left the team in the past 6 months? How have _other smart_ team members been ignored?

When a team is awful, it effects more than just you personally. The people who complain with true vigor are the ones who see it in their coworkers.

If its 100% personal anecdote of a self taught self-described polymath... sorry, I'm chocking it up to the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Re: My Amazon Burnout Experience

#77
post #49

It seems obvious that this person is aware they don't work well with others, and actively refuses to try to do better -- while writing a self-aggrandizing story about how he is both the smartest person in the room and most everyone around him was an idiot. He seems to believe there was no one else smart at Amazon either, and all projects that 'got in his way' were created my simple minded peons. This type of retrospe…

I stopped reading a few paragraphs in when all the author had managed to convey was how great they are. I also find it strange that someone so competent who wants to remain anonymous would reveal so much information about their situation in the company. What little I read seems like it would be enough to pinpoint them within the organization.

You should read the whole thing. The author may come across as a narcissist at the beginning but that wanes rather quickly - he is also quite honest and forthcoming about his own shortcomings.

Everything he writes will resonate with anyone who has worked in large bureaucracies.

Re: My Amazon Burnout Experience

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your post is a prime example of what is wrong with Amazon - I'm not sure if you were aware of the irony when you wrote it. If the author is capable of developing systems that save the company hundreds of millions of dollars per year, why the fuck does it matter if they are a "great person to work with"?

>> why the fuck does it matter if they are a "great person to work with" Cause no one wants to work with an asshole, no matter how smart they are. There's plenty of other engineers out there that can build systems and save money, maybe not to the specific degree that OP claims to be able to, but unlike OP they'll work with their team.

Cause no one wants to work with an asshole, no matter how smart they are.

I guess thats why HR should work more to find people with different mindset, ability and should create working environment for them, where is the equality then? Not everyone succeeds in social terms, not everyone is good at amusing their peers, there are some people who do better in academic/virtual stuff, but not so good in other terms, so what? should they die? should they always live in dirt?

My small brain suggests me that's the problem of HR

Re: My Amazon Burnout Experience

#79
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the author is capable of developing systems that save the company hundreds of millions of dollars per year, why the fuck does it matter if they are a "great person to work with"? If the author is a narcissist, they would be mistaken about saving the company hundreds of millions of dollars per year. Remember, this is from the author's point of view. Allegedly, he was working with PH.Ds and others who disagreed wi…

There is absolutely no evidence here that they have dunning krugers. In fact, their continued employment at a company that routinely cuts the lower performers is probably evidence against them having dunning krugers.

The guy's entire 2794 word anonymous rant is 100% about himself.

If he wasn't a narcissist, he'd have managed to fit at least a few words about how a coworker was mistreated.

Re: My Amazon Burnout Experience

#80

It seems obvious that this person is aware they don't work well with others, and actively refuses to try to do better -- while writing a self-aggrandizing story about how he is both the smartest person in the room and most everyone around him was an idiot. He seems to believe there was no one else smart at Amazon either, and all projects that 'got in his way' were created my simple minded peons. This type of retrospe…

I wasn't planning on responding to anything, but your comment has enough truth that the criticism is worth responding to.

I am aware that I don't work as well as I could with others, especially those who hold lots of power but little technical aptitude. Its not out of a smug sense of superiority...I recognize these people are very much my superior in other ways. It is probably limitations of my vocabulary and inexperience at conveying complex ideas with common language. I have no problem claiming to possess numeric and analytical intelligence, but social intelligence is a daily struggle. I even recognize that I was probably hard to manage from a higher-than-direct level, especially when I let my frustrations get the best of me.

Regardless, I find that to be beside the point I am trying to make.

I was sold on a meritocratic position under a boss who believed in a meritocratic ideal, and I thought I could do that job well. As the job was described to me, and as I was told of my criteria for promotion, I actually did do that job well. However, I was judged by a standard that was opaque, never communicated clearly (in fact, some internal rules prohibit a more clear explanation), and I languished for several years in absolute naivety and ignorance while believing every line they fed to me hook, line, and sinker. It took someone who actually cared about me as a person to open up and explain how it all really worked before I got it.

My story absolutely is one of being hard to work with, having naive expectations, and going about things all wrong. But it is also one about being lied to repeatedly about how to do my job right, destroying my quality of life in the pursuit of the game as it was communicated to me, being cast aside for people who played the deliberately obscured game better, and getting burnt out by it. And given the recent statements by senior level executives about how Amazon is so meritocratic, it is a story of how even those who rise to the high performance meritocratic expectations that they talk about can get obliterated by aspects of the company culture that those same executives claim do not exist.

I'm not perfect, but I knew well before I started that political intelligence was a weak spot for me...and if I had any indication of how insanely political the promotion process was, I probably would have never accepted the offer. I wanted the meritocratic Amazon that was sold to me.

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