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My husband needed therapy after working for Amazon

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Re: My husband needed therapy after working for Amazon

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really think a union at Amazon would probably fix a lot of issues, but would cost most of the things about the culture that are actually good. I do think the FC workers should be in a union. Absolutely.

I really think that if Amazon is only surviving with a razor-thin profit margin and they only do that because they treat their employees like beat-up warehouse equipment, then maybe it shouldn't exist as a company. My opinion of them has really downgraded from a "Sears" of the internet (back when Sears actually had a good reputation) towards more of a "Walmart" of the internet.

...and that's not to mention their systematic tax evasion. I agree that the human cost is the bigger problem at the moment, but i really get worked up about the multinationals earning massive profit and paying single-digit percent taxes. That's another rant, though.

Re: My husband needed therapy after working for Amazon

#192

> When our first daughter was about a month old, my husband was asked to go on a business trip. I imagine he could have turned that down, but I was insistent that he go so that his managers would not worry that his home life was impacting his work ethic. This is the Amazon way, after all. It was also one of the loneliest weeks of my life. Amazon seems to have serious issues, but this one is on the employee/spouse. If…

>so that his managers would not worry that his home life was impacting his work ethic

It isn't on the employee/spouse; this is why you have managers that sometimes have to tell employees to go home. We're so fearful of losing our jobs that we bend over backwards for employers. This is what happens when employers have an advantage.

>I know some upper management probably look down on this

So your boss is fine with it but your boss's boss may not be. At least you aren't living in fear of losing your job.

>I realize keeping this balance may disqualify me from ever becoming VP of engineering

Why should it keep you from becoming VP of engineering? That's messed up.

Re: My husband needed therapy after working for Amazon

#193
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell me, if it was your money being invested, would you act differently?

Yeah, it seems like it's the natural dynamic. The government could probably do something about it, I guess.

Yep, and that should be minimum wage, not "good working conditions for highly-paid white collar workers". [Edit: sorry if the tone sounds bad, no intend to offend]

Disclaimer: I'm a highly-paid white collar worker.

There's enough competition in the tech industry that this isn't a problem, let the market regulate itself in this case, it's working. I wouldn't work at Amazon under those conditions, but if some people would, let them.

Re: My husband needed therapy after working for Amazon

#194
It's these sort of articles that questions my use of Amazon for my retail purchases. Not just from the ethical standpoint of overworking people but also from the practical effect of getting most of what I want on time at a price I want because I can't say that Amazon today really does a good job on that front either.

For example, if I want to purchase electronic components for my PC New Egg still beats them every time in price and delivery times (imo). Anytime I buy something like a stick of RAM from Amazon I tend to get burned on the delivery time (unless I use Prime) or the price (certain third party retailers just run out of stock). So, I never trust Amazon with my component purchases.

Similarly, I'm finding their clothing section is getting more parse every year for plus sized clothing so I wind up buying socks from Sock Dreams, most outfits from Torrid (casual/off-work) or Lane Bryant (office-friendly/semi-formal) or some other retailer.

Oddly, Amazon still beats Zappos on large size shoes (Zappos use to be the goto retailer but not anymore they seem to have culled most of their stock of non-fetish large size shoes).

All this article and the NYT article just convinces me further that Amazon may become my retailer of last resort since all the thumbscrews in the world isn't worth anything if it comes down to a meager savings in price or time.

Re: My husband needed therapy after working for Amazon

#195
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It would be so much more humane to just have two people on-call each week, each covering a 12-hour window, with 8-hours overlapped by their own work schedules. Just another reason why opening an office in Europe is great for a company at some stage of its growth.

India is a better bet. 10.5 hours away means they are nearly on the opposite schedule, price is better (wages only marginally, but Europe has lots of other costs) and you aren't stuck dealing with insane euro labor laws.

Insane euro labour laws are what help to keep us workers from breaking down here. Honestly, it's really a godsend.

Re: My husband needed therapy after working for Amazon

#197
I'd like to understand more about the systems that require pager duty?

I don't work for AMZN, but as I understand it the internal infrastructure is highly service-ified, so (ideally) pager-duty activities are hopefully somewhat contained. And, I would imagine those issues relates to less-mature systems in play.

Which leads me to my impression: it's 2015, AMZN has been around for 20 years, and their warehouses weren't just propped up yesterday. If pager duty involves looking into more mature systems interacting with others, then those activities will only get worse over time. It becomes maintenance nightmare land, something you can only do by churning through people.

AMZN has some hard engineering problems to solve, but I wouldn't label it a top-notch engineering organization.

Re: My husband needed therapy after working for Amazon

#198
post #120
post #40

I have a four-week rotation on-call where I work. Pretty much the same workload as discussed in the article with it. Calls and text messages at 3am, can't be more than 15 minutes away from an internet connection (remote desktop software on Android is a godsend.) While it doesn't feel unbearable, and pays fairly well (at least for the area I'm in), it definitely has completely destroyed my sleep schedule. I no longer…

> Even better, hire one more person and cover the full 24-hours staffed. But I get why that'll never happen, at least. Because it's cheaper to burn out your existing employees, fire them for non-performance, and then hire (and lie to) new employees who don't know what's going on. The problem here is "on call". Why not "on duty"? If I'm getting paid for the midnight shift one week out of four, that's annoying, but man…

In the US, that's the big difference between exempt and non-exempt. I'm glad I have a lower, less prestigious job because it's classified as non-exempt. That means if I'm on call, I'm paid for it. Which means the company really has to think "is it worth having this guy sit around in case something breaks?". It also means company policy prohibits me from having a company cell with email access, because I shouldn't be working off the clock. This lets me work on many side projects because at 5:00p, I'm done. If they need me to do more, they pay me more.

I won't say the system is perfect, but when the company incurs a cost for being legally obligated to pay more for more work, I think the employment social contract becomes more fair. Aside from top level executives (CEO, etc.), I'm not exactly sure I can find a reason that people should be classified as exempt.

Lawyers and doctors are the often cited examples of exempt employees. Sorry, if an attorney spends a few more hours one week on trial prep, his firm is billing for it, so pay him/her more. Similarly, if a surgeon's operation goes sideways and ends up taking two hours more, pay him/her more.

If the idea that any labor past 40 hours in a week was "free labor" for a company was discarded (or better yet, actually cost the company more than the first 40 hours, i.e., "overtime"), we could reduce the number of people who are working more than 40 hours per week and start hiring more unemployed people. On a micro-scale, does it make sense to have 4 people consistently working 50 hours each with 1 unemployed person, or does it make more sense to have 5 people consistently working 40 hours per week?

While you're at it, maybe 35 (or 30?) is the new 40?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time#Gradual_decrease_...

Re: My husband needed therapy after working for Amazon

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for not saying that its better than a brothel of Bangladesh and China. It was clear in what context I have written my comment. Your argument can be qualified as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

well, his (valid) point is, that arguably most of this planet inahbitants would do anything possible to get a job like that, for even half the income. which is true. just we in IT and developers in particular are in these days amazingly spoiled, full of this feeling that we are some engineer++, more clever, and generally better than say construction engineers (or any other for that matter). back home we have a saying…

really...

if anything SDE are underpaid compared to the skills/competency they give in return..

We don't tell other professionals to take a pay cut cause a whole bunch of people are doing it tough...

Re: My husband needed therapy after working for Amazon

#200
post #115

Some things about this article bother me. It starts by describing what is objectively a problem ascribable to Amazon itself ( letting on-call rotations reach the 3 week mark is terrible ), and then descends to pure appeal to emotion. Here's what I mean: the only thing that seemed an actual problem, to judge from the article, is that the on-call rotations became once every three weeks. Perhaps the length of the on-cal…

Agreed. The other glaring hole I see in this article is the absence of any push back or assertion of boundaries. Was this guy's manager even aware of the sacrifices this guy was making? Did he ever sit down and say, "24/7 rotation every three weeks is exhausting and more than I signed up for; we need to hire." Did he tell HR he was reaching a breaking point? We are adults with demanding jobs; we have to assert boundaries. If we get a call asking us to come in, it is very reasonable to say, "I'm away on vacation with my family, can someone else cover this?" If the answer is no, then you make your choice, but your manager at least knows that sacrifice that is taking place. If you can't work with your manager to make life livable, talk to his manager or talk to HR. There is no excuse for toiling away silently and playing the martyr. The very fact that this guy's wife wrote the article instead of himself gives the impression that he doesn't know how to self-advocate.
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