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Technology has created more jobs than it has destroyed, says 140 years of data

theguardian.com

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Re: Technology has created more jobs than it has destroyed, says 140 years of data

#71

Post by prodmerc »

toyg wrote: post #54
prodmerc wrote: post #33

Uh, yeah, because there was room to grow or move in to. In 1900 people were still settling in America, and production has grown immensely worldwide at a steady rate since then, while population was relatively low. Now, population has grown three fold in the last hundred years: http://www.historyfuturenow.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2012/1... There are more old people alive than ever before as a percentage of the overal…

> Uh, yeah, because there was room to grow or move in to. There is still plenty of room to grow and improve. Africa and Asia have huge amounts of land that are nowhere as dense as the US, let alone Europe. > we need something for those who will simply have nothing to do in order to make money... We need to rethink how money is created and distributed. Once you do that, the need to "make money" might be lessened or re…

Africa, yeah, probably the last continent that has huge potential. But won't they just skip the people and go straight to automation? Like how developing countries have the newest Internet infrastructure because it was a no brainer to install the latest generation (rather than upgrade the old stuff).

Rethinking income/money is definitely a must, but right now we're totally dependent on it...

Re: Technology has created more jobs than it has destroyed, says 140 years of data

#72

Post by prodmerc »

blumkvist wrote: post #52
prodmerc wrote: post #33

Uh, yeah, because there was room to grow or move in to. In 1900 people were still settling in America, and production has grown immensely worldwide at a steady rate since then, while population was relatively low. Now, population has grown three fold in the last hundred years: http://www.historyfuturenow.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2012/1... There are more old people alive than ever before as a percentage of the overal…

There are plenty of jobs that cannot and will never be able to be automated. Like a kindergarten teacher. Coincidentally (or not so much) those are the jobs that improve society and life the most.

You can have only so many teachers before the market is oversaturated. And I think quite a few people will prefer home schooling via online courses.

Re: Technology has created more jobs than it has destroyed, says 140 years of data

#73

Post by redcalx »

simonh wrote: post #53
dotcoma wrote: post #23

If true, is this good? Isn't the purpose of work to end (or to diminish, at least) all work? (and leave us with more time to take care of ourselves, our minds, our bodies, our souls, our kids, our parents, our friends, our neighbours, our politics, our environment etc)

The trap I find myself in is that (at least here in the UK) we are all in competition with each other for a fixed, limited resource. Housing. I earn a very good wage, as does my wife, but we still work tough jobs for long hours so that we can afford a nice house, in a good location, with a garden for our kids to grow up in. No matter how much people like me earn, we will just use it to bid up house prices even more.…

It's interesting to 'follow the money' in the UK situation. If we were building more houses then prices would be lower and money would be flowing into construction and therefore the working population as a whole.

With constrained supply the money flows to existing property owners which are generally older, more likely to be retired, etc. That older group probably spend a lot of that excess wealth on holidays and social care. If that excess wealth was reduced then the discretionary purchases would drop first (the holidays). Probably the economy would have a very different 'shape' if construction supply was increased to meet demand.

Re: Technology has created more jobs than it has destroyed, says 140 years of data

#74

Post by blumkvist »

prodmerc wrote: post #72
blumkvist wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of jobs that cannot and will never be able to be automated. Like a kindergarten teacher. Coincidentally (or not so much) those are the jobs that improve society and life the most.

You can have only so many teachers before the market is oversaturated. And I think quite a few people will prefer home schooling via online courses.

One teacher per 5 kids seems reasonable to me and will more than quadruple the kindergarten teachers. Homeschooling is a terrible idea as is, but more pedagogues will completely remove any logical reasons to even consider it.

But why do you latch to the specific job i picked? More ecologists, more physicians, more nurses, more psychologists, more people in the creative industries. More people in the "caring" industries as a whole. Workforce shifted from labor to knowledge. It will now shift to societal work.

Re: Technology has created more jobs than it has destroyed, says 140 years of data

#75

Post by JoeAltmaier »

blumkvist wrote: post #74
prodmerc wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can have only so many teachers before the market is oversaturated. And I think quite a few people will prefer home schooling via online courses.

One teacher per 5 kids seems reasonable to me and will more than quadruple the kindergarten teachers. Homeschooling is a terrible idea as is, but more pedagogues will completely remove any logical reasons to even consider it. But why do you latch to the specific job i picked? More ecologists, more physicians, more nurses, more psychologists, more people in the creative industries. More people in the "caring" industri…

But...why? Why make up 'societal work', to keep people busy? Is it such a bad idea that folks should be able to choose their own lives, doing their own thing?

For instance, I might never want to become a touchy-feely creative-industry person. What is there in this planned society for me?

The trouble with this discussion is, that it starts assuming everybody must have a job. I disagree; that's the old pre-abundance view of the world. We have to get past that.

Re: Technology has created more jobs than it has destroyed, says 140 years of data

#76

Post by dummy7953 »

collyw wrote: post #24
alwaysdoit wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Society as a whole benefits, but there are high individual costs. We ought to figure out a way to smooth out those costs for the individuals.

I am not sure it always does. Do you view the NSA's snooping technology as a benefit to society? More high tech, well paid jobs have been created there. Likewise I feel that a great deal of the tech involved in finance is of questionable benefit to society as aw whole. Does High frequency trading actually benefit anyone other than the banks?

High frequency trading helps create liquidity. But I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to find that the stock market is largely rigged.

Typically, a new recession starts in the first term of a new president, so 2017 should be interesting if not totally predictable.

Re: Technology has created more jobs than it has destroyed, says 140 years of data

#77

Post by dummy7953 »

dotcoma wrote: post #23

If true, is this good? Isn't the purpose of work to end (or to diminish, at least) all work? (and leave us with more time to take care of ourselves, our minds, our bodies, our souls, our kids, our parents, our friends, our neighbours, our politics, our environment etc)

No. The purpose of work is to combine labor with capital, in order to make more capital for owners. The goal of diminishing work is to push down labor costs for owners. Any and all extra value created by the combination of labor and capital must go back to the owners as more capital.

Re: Technology has created more jobs than it has destroyed, says 140 years of data

#78

Post by collyw »

gd1 wrote: post #68
collyw wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The banks seem to be the only ones benefiting from this as far as I can tell. My life doesn't feel any better for HFT.

Look around you. Pick any product you like. A thousand financial transactions went into making it, all along the supply chain. Currencies were converted and hedged, iron ore and copper and crude oil futures were purchased and sold. When technology squeezes out middlemen and makes them more efficient, you gain.

On the other hand when bankers manipulate prices then everyone looses.

Re: Technology has created more jobs than it has destroyed, says 140 years of data

#79

Post by edc117 »

gd1 wrote: post #68
collyw wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The banks seem to be the only ones benefiting from this as far as I can tell. My life doesn't feel any better for HFT.

Look around you. Pick any product you like. A thousand financial transactions went into making it, all along the supply chain. Currencies were converted and hedged, iron ore and copper and crude oil futures were purchased and sold. When technology squeezes out middlemen and makes them more efficient, you gain.

I could be wrong, but from what I understand of HFT, it doesn't squeeze out middlemen, it squeezes out competition. It sets the barrier to entry so high that only the super rich can participate. I agree completely with your point, by the way, I'm just not sure HFT is a good example of it.

Re: Technology has created more jobs than it has destroyed, says 140 years of data

#80

Post by mavdi »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #41
mavdi wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess it that depends from person to person but I'd be definitely interested to see the general population happiness (not sure how they measure that) with tech. I personally can't stand tech anymore, it's what I'm forced to do to make a living. I'd rather stare at a tree than a mobile screen.

I think it's a good idea not to be too Western. Median living standards in the West have improved a lot over the last century, especially since WWII. But a lot of that improvement has been off the back of Rest of World, where slave-like conditions still endure. It's fine to have hairdressers here, but it's useful to remember that hairdressing is only possible because there are textile makers, miners, and farmers work…

Agreed. It well may be that technology temporarily enhances our lives while in the long run it's detrimental for our species.
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