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Technology has created more jobs than it has destroyed, says 140 years of data

theguardian.com

41–50 of 87 posts

Re: Technology has created more jobs than it has destroyed, says 140 years of data

#41
post #30

I am more interested in another question: has technology created more leisure than it has destroyed?

I guess it that depends from person to person but I'd be definitely interested to see the general population happiness (not sure how they measure that) with tech. I personally can't stand tech anymore, it's what I'm forced to do to make a living. I'd rather stare at a tree than a mobile screen.

I think it's a good idea not to be too Western. Median living standards in the West have improved a lot over the last century, especially since WWII.

But a lot of that improvement has been off the back of Rest of World, where slave-like conditions still endure. It's fine to have hairdressers here, but it's useful to remember that hairdressing is only possible because there are textile makers, miners, and farmers working in extremely harsh conditions elsewhere in the world.

And there's also been incredible damage to the planetary carrying capacity, with effects that will become more and more obvious as the century progresses.

So it's just as possible to argue that technology is more like a drug that works on generational time scales: you get a hit, you feel awesome for a while, then you fall apart.

Re: Technology has created more jobs than it has destroyed, says 140 years of data

#42

I have no real doubt this is true, but what may be different in today's situation is that something akin to true "artificial general intelligence" is not completely unfeasible (or something close enough to it that there's no practical difference). This is quite different to previous technological revolutions, where it was primarily manual labour that was automated. We seem to have in general conceded that many of tho…

what happens if there really is nothing we're better at than a computer It's not that you have to compete with computers while being naked and without tools in outer space. The line between Humans and Computers will continue to blur. Right now, you carry a computer with you in your pocket. Tomorrow you will have it in your head. And it will aid your thinking without you having to type stuff into a keyboard and lookin…

> Right now, you carry a computer with you in your pocket. Tomorrow you will have it in your head. And it will aid your thinking without you having to type stuff into a keyboard and looking at a screen.

You're assuming people will want it in their heads. I'd rather be naked and without tools, than become part of The Borg. YMMV though.

Re: Technology has created more jobs than it has destroyed, says 140 years of data

#43
I think this article completely misses the point. The technological revolution happening right now is unlike any other in history, and is escalating faster than anyone realizes. We are really just entering the ascent of the S-curve, and things are already starting to advance dramatically on a yearly basis. Comparing the effects of technology between today and even 40 years ago (much less a century ago) is the epitome of apples-to-oranges. It is a meaningless comparison for all sorts of reasons.

We're in a new and exponentially developing Renaissance, the likes of which we have no historical analogy for (not even the actual Renaissance or Industrial Revolution). It's incredibly exciting, but we're in for quite a ride over the next few decades, and our sociopolitical foundations are not prepared for it in the slightest. I think encouraging further procrastination of preparedness does a disservice to us all.

Re: Technology has created more jobs than it has destroyed, says 140 years of data

#44
Not quite sure the article is making any point about technology that was not widely accepted before. Industrialization with its the social progresses, and the golden age post-WW2 are always taken as counterpoint in any discussion about impact of technology today, as is the article conclusion "where one avenue closes in the jobs market, others open.".

The actual problem that worries people nowadays is if there is a limit to the number of avenues and if we are close to hitting it ? And even if new avenues open, how easy it is to switch to them physically ( they open in another country ) or practically ( they require high qualification level ) The article does not make a case for that at all. Increase in caring professions, for example, is government policy driven. Is the article claiming that technology what the key factor that drove those policies and that further automation will drive the state to push for even more caring professionals ?

Anyway, I guess the only goal of the article is to give hope to Joe Reader. That is not a bad thing, after all, at the very worst, we are still only at the peak of employment and wealth and (without the singularity) the world will not brutally crash, it will slowly degrade leaving plenty of opportunities for everyone to get a clue. For others though, they would have guessed that with a population doubling during the same period and low current unemployment rate, it is obvious that some jobs must have been created somewhere.

Re: Technology has created more jobs than it has destroyed, says 140 years of data

#46
post #44

Not quite sure the article is making any point about technology that was not widely accepted before. Industrialization with its the social progresses, and the golden age post-WW2 are always taken as counterpoint in any discussion about impact of technology today, as is the article conclusion "where one avenue closes in the jobs market, others open.". The actual problem that worries people nowadays is if there is a li…

There's a very popular youtube video that argues this point and people often cite it.

The problem with this line of thinking is that you assume there are some new job types that come into play and they replace old ones. While it is true that we have some entirely new job types (i.e. programmer) majority of the shift is to jobs which were already defined.

Did we have architects and physicians before the industrialization? Of course we did. We just have more of them now, because we don't need so many people to harvest crops.

Do we have kindergarten teachers, ecologists, social scientists now? Of course we do. We will just have more of them after the digitalization, because we won't need so many people to take your money at Wallmart or drive trucks or do legal discovery.

Re: Technology has created more jobs than it has destroyed, says 140 years of data

#47
post #44

Not quite sure the article is making any point about technology that was not widely accepted before. Industrialization with its the social progresses, and the golden age post-WW2 are always taken as counterpoint in any discussion about impact of technology today, as is the article conclusion "where one avenue closes in the jobs market, others open.". The actual problem that worries people nowadays is if there is a li…

>the world will not brutally crash, it will slowly degrade

I think if you look at the stats it's been slowly upgrading rather than visa versa. I don't see much sign of the trend reversing globally. Pessimists tend to look at worker living standards in the US where they have been kind of static, ignoring the poorest 80% of the planet where they have been shooting up. China for example has been transformed over the last 30 years.

Re: Technology has created more jobs than it has destroyed, says 140 years of data

#48
post #23

If true, is this good? Isn't the purpose of work to end (or to diminish, at least) all work? (and leave us with more time to take care of ourselves, our minds, our bodies, our souls, our kids, our parents, our friends, our neighbours, our politics, our environment etc)

If this was the only effect of technology, it would obviously not be good. However, technology has also greatly improved the quality of life. I'd also argue that an end to work is something that we, as a society, are simply not ready for. Firstly, because our current economic system isn't capable of handling such a change, but also societally, people aren't ready for it. If I recall, there have been studies that have…

> there have been studies that have linked earlier retirement to a reduced life expectancy

If you count retirement as sitting around doing nothing then I agree. But retirement shouldnt mean retirement from doing things - just retirement from working for someone else to be able to support yourself.

When I 'retire' I'll get much more personally meaningful things done, which otherwise would not earn me enough money to support a family.

Re: Technology has created more jobs than it has destroyed, says 140 years of data

#49
post #19

Looking at current uk employment numbers[1] , it seems that healthcare , education accommodation and food services count as 23% of the economy. But : 1. Will they grow under new conditions ? These sectors historically didn't enjoy more productivity due to technology. Economists called this "baumol's disease". But this is changing. We're seeing higher education and maybe some lower education being automated. In japan…

> 1. Will they grow under new conditions ?

Some conditions don't change. An OAP with limited mobility will always require assistance day-to-day, and it's the sort of thing robots are really bad at. OAPs are also growing in number, as life expectation increases. Another one: you will always need someone to help give birth - in fact, as hospitals are deemed too expensive and scaled back, we will likely need more nurses, since home-births stop them from sharing their time between patients. Again, this will not be touched by automation. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples.

>2. How much more can they grow ?

I think that's more a function of our social organisation than technology. The real question is basically "how can we pay these people?" -- morality and common sense tell us that a lot of these activities should not be linked to profit, but that is economically challenging unless we rethink how money is created and distributed.

> We're talking about 40% of jobs at risk due to automation in 20 years.

I find that number too high to be true. 10 or 20%, maybe; 40%, it's really hard to believe - that's 15 million people in the UK without a job, where currently we have 2.3million unemployed. It would mean basically 1 million newly unemployed people each year; I would argue society would not survive 5 years in such conditions, let alone 20.

In any case, I have no doubt we can create more office-based bullshit roles to offset the bulk of those losses (dedicated entertainment people in every office; corporate psychologists; continuous-change oversight; dedicated corporate tailors; and so on and so forth...).

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