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Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

nytimes.com

101–110 of 223 posts

Re: Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

#101
post #3

I've been reading various comments about this around the internet and many people are saying they will stop ordering from Amazon because of it. These white collar workers are highly paid, and not forced to be there. Most of them could easily find another job someplace else (and it sounds like many do). I just can't feel bad for them. If you don't want to work throughout your vacation, go find another job that won't m…

Implied in your comment is that employees (assuming they are employable white collar employees) are empowered economic actors. They keep choosing to work there.

I think the reality of the employee-employer relationship is that employees don't have the sort of power, as one would have as a customer, for example. Part of the reasons are probably explainable economically. It's a fairly illiquid market for employees because the cost of getting to an agreement, negotiating terms (never-mind sampling) is very high. A lot of other reasons are probably best explained psychologically or anthropologically, roles we assume in certain situations. I suspect these are the bigger ones. Either way, barriers are there and bad treatment of employees often results in badly treated employees, not empty just resignations.

In a lot of ways, "if you don't like it, get another job" like "if you don't like it, get another country."

The free exchange economistic-ey forces are there, but they are not the only things there. Other things that make employers behave better is standards set by society. These are laws, but also just norms and practices. These are impacted by things like articles or consumer responses.

It's complicated.

I'm fairly sympathetic to a lot of libertarian positions. But, I don't buy into the strong economic rationalist arguments.

Economic forces dictate how some things play out. other times, other cultural forces take effect. When it comes to employee treatment, I think societal norms are a massive influence. The reaction you are observing is part a mechanism for this. Society's scolding amazon for treating its employees badly, defining and enforcing the nom..

Re: Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

#102
post #4

> But if you know of any stories like those reported, I want you to escalate to HR. You can also email me directly at jeff@amazon.com. Even if it’s rare or isolated, our tolerance for any such lack of empathy needs to be zero. I say don't escalate to HR but leave to work at another place. HR is not your advocate, it is not there to help you. You are just a "resource" just like it says in the name. There have been man…

HR is never your friend. Aside from the job they're required to do, HR usually attracts people with despicable morals and class. They wont hesitate on lying to you, set you up on to something, threaten you, whatever it takes to get what they (personally) want. Stay clear of HR, that is true for 99% of jobs.

"Stay clear of HR, that is true for 99% of jobs."

Having met at least 50+ people in HR who aren't what like you say, i'm going to call complete bullshit on this. I don't think you have anywhere near the kind of data to generalize an entire profession across all industries :)

The vast majority of people i've met who feel like you do are people who were, IMHO fired pretty fairly, but are ashamed to admit that maybe they weren't performing as well as they think, so they blame the system.

Re: Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

#103
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked in HR a few times and this is right. Not because the people there are assholes. They are really nice and want to employ everybody forever. But they just can't. Often the leadership of HR is the problem. In civil service, the HR bosses were all about getting their friends and family a job. In the free marked, they wanted to minimize costs and legal obligations to the employees. The rest of the HR-workforce ju…

> Not because the people there are assholes. They are really nice and want to employ everybody forever. Some. Maybe. But there is also something to be said for being really cut out for a particular line of work. Those types definitely exist as well.

They exist in every profession, HR is no better or worse. Witness the number of startups which end up in PR disasters, etc.

Re: Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

#105
post #68

Sounds like Bezos is just doing damage control. The original article is somewhat interesting but hardly novel. I've never talked to a single person who worked at Amazon who had anything positive to say. You have recruiters recruiting for Amazon who are basically saying, "Do not work there." They are being paid on commission to get you to work there and they're telling you what a horrible place to work it is, killing…

And yet Amazon (3.4) rates comparable on Glassdoor to many other important technology companies, including: Oracle (3.3), Yahoo (3.5), HP (3.3), IBM (3.1), eBay (3.5), Tesla (3.4), Dell (3.4), Cisco (3.7).

That's with 5,800+ reviews. Something doesn't add up.

Re: Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always thought HR was there to manage the resources the humans need, e.g. teabags. That and justifying their existence by making more resources for the humans. It really does strike me a non-job that requires a lot of work to keep in existence That's about the only dealings I have with them. I guess that's a benefit of working at a small company :) On a serious note though, you're right, HR is not your friend, it's…

There are other things as well that are pretty important: Recruiting, performance reviews, and visa sponsorships. I personally would hate to setup interview loops, having to manage calendars and book rooms, and the amount of paperwork required to hire a candidate that is not a US Resident, boy that would suck too.

...and training, succession planning, workforce planning, onboarding, offboarding, retention and attrition, re-locations, HRIS management, coaching, etc.

Not sure most people really understand what HR does, just as HR arguably doesn't understand what a developer does.

Re: Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

#107
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe workers could come together to build such a structure...somewhere they could come together to negotiate their conditions of employment...

Not that crazy some movie and animation studio developers in Hollywood are in a union.

Who other than Dreamworks?

Re: Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

#108
post #98

First world problems like no other... We're talking about highly paid professionals working at a rather cushy job all things considered. It's like listening to rich kids complain about having blue M&M's touching the red M&M's in their bowl of candy. Nothing in this whole bit of drama is shocking other then I'm not quite sure why Amazon is being singled out. All of the complaints made are systematic problems in any la…

A poisonous workplace with lots of employees will create huge negative externalities to the surrounding society. 1. People look up to their successfull peers. Examples succesfull companies create propagate throughout the management layers in the industry. 2. If Amazon sets a 'lets suck them dry' example then this will lower the barrier for other companies to follow suit, or enforce their existing pathologies 3. Bad w…

Imagine how things might be today if General Electric chairman and CEO Jack Welch hadn't implemented and praised to the high heavens stack ranking.

Re: Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

#109
post #3

I've been reading various comments about this around the internet and many people are saying they will stop ordering from Amazon because of it. These white collar workers are highly paid, and not forced to be there. Most of them could easily find another job someplace else (and it sounds like many do). I just can't feel bad for them. If you don't want to work throughout your vacation, go find another job that won't m…

I don't plan to boycott either, but I can see why others do. Whether Amazon's employees are white collar or not, and whether or not they freely choose to work there, I still find it morally objectionable for Amazon to treat their employees the way that they apparently do.

Of course this is not as bad as taking advantage of desperate, low-skill workers, or taking advantage of lax labor standards abroad. But white-collar Amazon workers are still people and the managers at Amazon still owe them at least some duty to not willfully make their lives miserable.

(And, by the way, there are also stories out there about Amazon's treatment of lower-skilled, less "free" warehouse employees, etc. which would, I think, be better cause for boycott if true. But that's really a different subject.)

Re: Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

#110
post #4

> But if you know of any stories like those reported, I want you to escalate to HR. You can also email me directly at jeff@amazon.com. Even if it’s rare or isolated, our tolerance for any such lack of empathy needs to be zero. I say don't escalate to HR but leave to work at another place. HR is not your advocate, it is not there to help you. You are just a "resource" just like it says in the name. There have been man…

Always take it to your union rep first. Your union is your advocate, and is there to help you.

They can advise you on the most appropriate next step for your particular workplace.

They can take it to HR, anonymously (depending on context), for you.

They can ask their members if anyone else has similar issues, in order to add weight to your complaint and ensure that HR take corrective action to fix the source of the problem, rather than sweeping individual complaints under the carpet.

They can advise you on presenting appropriate evidence so that HR see your complaint as valid, rather than as a whinge.

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