Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices • Hacker News Board

Re: Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

#91

Post by kabdib » Mon, Aug 17, 2015, 3:16 PM UTC

arethuza wrote: post #9

rdtsc wrote: post #4

> But if you know of any stories like those reported, I want you to escalate to HR. You can also email me directly at jeff@amazon.com. Even if it’s rare or isolated, our tolerance for any such lack of empathy needs to be zero. I say don't escalate to HR but leave to work at another place. HR is not your advocate, it is not there to help you. You are just a "resource" just like it says in the name. There have been man…

When I worked at a multinational with hundreds of locations, HR turning up at site was sign that somebody was going to get it in the neck - HR didn't bother with small stuff so if they were about you knew it was serious for someone. [Edit: Made me think about how ghastly it must be to work in HR for a large company]

When your immediate managers have canceled all meetings and have been unreachable for three days ...

... when there is a mandatory "all hands" meeting called with two hour's notice ...

... and when you show up, there is HR present, plus people from the management stratosphere (who you've really only ever seen in TV) ...

Well, you know things are not going to go very well.

Re: Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

#92

Post by beauzero » Mon, Aug 17, 2015, 3:17 PM UTC

Moshe_Silnorin wrote: post #57

beauzero wrote: post #49

I think the point is being missed. As long as Amazon has "interesting" problems to solve they will get good people (look at what PhD candidates will suffer). If they don't then only those who can't leave will be left behind. I know this is cynical but it is also why I love this field so much. I look for interesting problems to solve...not huge benefits. Money just doesn't get me up in the morning. Will I die poor...m…

The problem with this is, with some marginal effort you could get vastly more money and interesting problems. Accepting a low salary out of some misguided notion that money isn't important to you is silly. Money gives you options you would not otherwise have - a great salary combined with thrift can facilitate an unusual amount of career flexibility. At the very least, you can donate the money you don't need to GiveW…

It has been my experience that certain problem sets are only addressed by a couple of companies at a time. Sometimes you have to see beyond the culture and pick the problem.

It has also been my experience that a low salary is indicative of a very boring company and set of problems. A very high salary is also indicative of a very boring company and a set of problems that may stem from culture...i.e. poor testing, etc.

...somewhere in the mid to upper end of salary lies very interesting problems. I just don't make my decision based solely on salary.

Re: Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

#93

Post by deciplex » Mon, Aug 17, 2015, 3:19 PM UTC

k__ wrote: post #29

degradas wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is book a called Corporate Confidential [1], written by a former HR person. One of most significant ideas there is that HR is (from the perspective of an employee) not your friend, but rather an enemy. They exist to protect the company, not you. Basically, going to HR is a quick way to get fired (for legal reasons, mind you) or kill your career. Whole book is highly depressing, but very useful if you want to tr…

I worked in HR a few times and this is right. Not because the people there are assholes. They are really nice and want to employ everybody forever. But they just can't. Often the leadership of HR is the problem. In civil service, the HR bosses were all about getting their friends and family a job. In the free marked, they wanted to minimize costs and legal obligations to the employees. The rest of the HR-workforce ju…

> Not because the people there are assholes. They are really nice and want to employ everybody forever.

Some. Maybe. But there is also something to be said for being really cut out for a particular line of work. Those types definitely exist as well.

Re: Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

#94

Post by rdtsc » Mon, Aug 17, 2015, 3:20 PM UTC

cperciva wrote: post #77

degradas wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is book a called Corporate Confidential [1], written by a former HR person. One of most significant ideas there is that HR is (from the perspective of an employee) not your friend, but rather an enemy. They exist to protect the company, not you. Basically, going to HR is a quick way to get fired (for legal reasons, mind you) or kill your career. Whole book is highly depressing, but very useful if you want to tr…

They exist to protect the company, not you. Sure, but that doesn't mean that they can't be on your side. If you report that your boss is doing something which is against company policy and hurts the company, it's quite possible for HR to be simultaneously on your side and on the company's side.

They can that's was my second point when their interests can temporarily align with yours.

Or actually the actions that stem from their interests also end up benefiting you as a side-effect. Say going public with the story. Well now they are forced to protect the PR image so they will actually do something to fix the problem (move the manager to a different location), give you more money to keep quiet, etc. But they are not doing this for your they are doing it for the company's sake.

Re: Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

#95

Post by dredmorbius » Mon, Aug 17, 2015, 3:20 PM UTC

cherimoya wrote: post #78

sagivo wrote: post #11

I'm in the process of joining Amazon as a software engineer manager. I don't know how to respond to this article and if to continue the process with them.

Keep this in mind: It's easier to find a job when you already have one. It takes the stress off the process and you automatically become more desirable for some reason. If I were you I wouldn't cut off the opportunity immediately, but I would continue looking for another job at the same time. The world has changed in the last few decades in terms of job loyalty so there won't be any kind of stigma against you if you…

Counterpoint: Amazon's use and enforcement of noncompetes.

Re: Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

#96

Post by richmarr » Mon, Aug 17, 2015, 3:21 PM UTC

anotherangrydev wrote: post #58

GnomeChomsky wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't people with "despicable morals and class" in every profession? Some of us are actually in HR because we like thinking critically & creatively behind the scenes to make others successful. I totally get why that might not describe the HR teams you've encountered, but I don't think we can all be characterized with such a broad brush.

You're the 1%, then. Honestly, I haven't met one decent guy in HR in a loooong time. Quite the contrary, I have plenty of bad experiences with HR that made me believe those things. I'll give you my favorite examples: I once got fired because I told some bitch (she was really a bitch, and that's not just my opinion, the whole workplace thought of that) to mind her own business. I was on a break and reading a magazine…

> I once got fired because I told some bitch...

In that one line I think there's two issues you might want to think about.

First of all, you're passing judgement apparently without empathising with where she's coming from. If you try to empathise with people rather than letting your amygdala control your response then you'll find life gets much easier.

Secondly, that language crosses the line of acceptability, both in the workplace and on HN. It's fine in a bar or wherever, but in the workplace it makes your audience percieve immaturity and poorly-controlled anger (whether it's there or not), and will make people in your workplace uncomfortable.

Both of those issues raise flags in my mind as things an HR person should pay serious attention to. Ideally they'd be looking to solve the problem first, but getting people to change is hard and company cultures can be fragile.

Just my two cents.

Re: Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

#97

Post by rdtsc » Mon, Aug 17, 2015, 3:22 PM UTC

NoGravitas wrote: post #83

adultSwim wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only there was a structure to represent workers where we could take such issues...

Maybe workers could come together to build such a structure...somewhere they could come together to negotiate their conditions of employment...

Not that crazy some movie and animation studio developers in Hollywood are in a union.

Re: Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

#98

Post by fsloth » Mon, Aug 17, 2015, 3:23 PM UTC

blindhippo wrote: post #23

First world problems like no other... We're talking about highly paid professionals working at a rather cushy job all things considered. It's like listening to rich kids complain about having blue M&M's touching the red M&M's in their bowl of candy. Nothing in this whole bit of drama is shocking other then I'm not quite sure why Amazon is being singled out. All of the complaints made are systematic problems in any la…

A poisonous workplace with lots of employees will create huge negative externalities to the surrounding society.

1. People look up to their successfull peers. Examples succesfull companies create propagate throughout the management layers in the industry.

2. If Amazon sets a 'lets suck them dry' example then this will lower the barrier for other companies to follow suit, or enforce their existing pathologies

3. Bad work/life balance creates depressed people and is not so good for long term productivity. It might create short term kicks for adrenaline junkies and workaholics. Such practices have no rational defence, except that they appeal to certain macho people. From the POV of the company it might not be a problem since they can always hire more people to suck dry but the broken people who leave have suffered personal tragedies with various side effects.

4. What is this 'Tech' where 'one needs to earn their place every day'? It certainly does not sound like professional software engineering for sane and capable people who can choose where to work.

Re: Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

#99

Post by hga » Mon, Aug 17, 2015, 3:23 PM UTC

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #89

inversionOf wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Terrible working conditions have been the norm for many coders for as long as there has been coding. In the late 90s, Joel Spolsky rose by being a contrarian and advocating good work conditions. Microsoft was always held as an extreme outlier with its good conditions. Everyone was agape about the .com bubble because companies were giving employees nice chairs (which in retrospect seems absurd...something so minor as…

Maybe, but I'm probably a lot older than your average HN'er and I remember my first few jobs. Everyone had an office. The sysadmin had one, the developers each had one, the manager did, etc. Or at the very least had a proper full size cube with proper size walls. There was an emphasis of privacy and quiet time because everyone needed to concentrate to get shit done. Walking into IT was like walking into a library. 10…

Indeed, I myself started working in 1980 and it sure seems like it was better then, but I can't isolate that from working in the Boston area until its high tech scene finished dying a hard death in the early '90s (the web created a new one a little later) and I moved to the D.C. area which you might say didn't have as high standards.

Re: Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

#100

Post by deftnerd » Mon, Aug 17, 2015, 3:24 PM UTC

sagivo wrote: post #11

I'm in the process of joining Amazon as a software engineer manager. I don't know how to respond to this article and if to continue the process with them.

I had interview opportunities with Amazon twice over the last few years and I've turned both down because of the reports of how badly they treat their workers. I made sure to tell the recruiter why and he said that they get that a lot now.