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We Still Let Harassers Participate in Our Community

kovalc.in

61–67 of 67 posts

Re: We Still Let Harassers Participate in Our Community

#61
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're bieng more of a bully than the author's harasser. Look at your language, you want to crucify people because they didn't destroy somebody's reputation and possibly their entire career when a member of your group asked them to? That's scary.

Are you saying that people whose career or reputation depends on not harassing women should be allowed to get away with harassing women more than others? A great example of the right way to do things is how the BBC kicked out their biggest star, Jeremy Clarkson, due to a single case of assault when the victim didn't even make a complaint. It shows that they don't give license to abuse people to the more valuable empl…

In any other industry Clarkson would have been fired for gross misconduct. The BBC did not fire Clarkson. They declined to renew his contract.

The BBC have said that they expect to see Clarkson on the BBC again. He was booked to appear on a panel show, but chose to pull out after public backlash.

The way the BBC handled Clarkson - a drunk bully - was terrible.

Re: We Still Let Harassers Participate in Our Community

#62
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A person doesn't "have" to say anything if they are not interested. I've only ever responded to and explicitly contested this point out of context of whatever the article is about. A person does have to say something in many scenarios. Like the one I gave. Or the result can be very wrong. >If you mean trying to be friendly and spend time with her, then what's the problem? If I was making her very uncomfortable and s…

> A person does have to say something in many scenarios. Like the one I gave. Or the result can be very wrong. Rejecting unwanted advances can take the form of silence. Especially over text message. It's a pretty common way to reject someone without creating an awkward situation. If one party can't take the hint then they are more likely being wilfully ignorant (don't want to accept rejection). And even if they aren'…

>And even if they aren't, it's not an excuse to harass.

Fuck off with this "not an excuse to harass" bullshit. I've already said it's not an excuse and harassment is never OK. I've already stated, twice now and this is a third time that I'm not taking the actions of the article into consideration so harassment is not the issue here. Do you understand? I want to make sure I'm being very explicit with my communication that this has nothing to do with harassment. I am talking about a scenario of undesired continued communication that does not have the intentions of harassing (sexual or otherwise).

>Women do not make a binary choice between either "being afraid of you" or "being attracted to you." If you are a friendly and reasonable person then you shouldn't have a problem.

You're now taking it out of the scenario. She was avoiding me. There's two reasons I can think of for actively avoiding someone. One of those is fear. The other is embarrassment. If you'd like to open my mind and give me more motives for avoiding someone for this context, feel free. But it seems very binary to me in this scenario.

>If you ask someone out and they say "I'm busy" a few too many times, maybe you just take the hint and move on, no?

And if they are legitimately busy? I'm finding it funny your chosen examples have all happened to me and all of them resulted in relationships. Do you have another example?

>The argument that "I'm too ignorant to know when women don't want my attention" is nonsense

I don't see why you keep making this gendered. I've already provided an example with the genders swapped. It works both ways and has nothing to do with ignorance. It has to do with a failure of communication (which is an important part of getting along and living among other human beings). Please respond to the tldr, this is a test to ensure you're actually reading my responses. When I entered this conversation and until this point it's always been about implicit messages being poor (and harmful) for communication.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and claim you do not understand how communication works. Communication requires the meaning of the message to be understood and agreed upon. When a message is ambiguous in meaning (non-direct, implicit) the meaning of the message can be received in a manner not intended by the person giving the message.

The best example of this is cultural differences in the meaning of an action. Even small things like putting soy sauce on your rice can have an entirely different meaning in Japan than in America. In Japan it can be considered rude while people in America wouldn't even give it a second thought. If I wanted to offend you, I could drown your rice in soy sauce. Now depending on your cultural background - I've either offended you, or you're unaware that my message was meant as an offense. Because this implicit meaning behind a physical mention is interpreted differently in different cultures.

Implicit messages are terrible for communication. The ability for the meaning to be misunderstood or improperly conveyed is astounding. If you want someone to leave you alone it is important to be explicit. Especially when your implicit messages are ambiguous.

TL;DR

At best you can hope that when you mean "A" they assume "A" instead of "B" when "A" and "B" are ambiguous. But there is nothing wrong with assuming "B" and it is your fault for failing to communicate if that occurs because your implicit message was too ambiguous. You failed to communicate your intentions of "A" and that failure is on you.

ps.

America has a culture where people play "hard to get" on purpose. Every example you can think of that is intended to say "stop contacting me I'm not interested" is also used by these same people as a means of "try harder, I'm interested but want to make sure you're serious".

Re: We Still Let Harassers Participate in Our Community

#63
post #53
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with your remark is the implicit way that you want to make sure no men get left out. De facto alienating women is fine. It sounds like "girls" aren't really people in your eyes.

If you're suggesting I should refer to girls I've interacted with when I was 9 years old as women, then I disagree with your suggestion. You have no solution besides shaming and locking up men who are harassing women. Is it working? Women are getting harassed and men are getting shamed. If that's your ideal of male-female relations then I suggest it is you who has a problem with not wanting to find out the root cause…

No, that is not my ideal of male-female relations. I have a track record of speaking out against that. You suggesting I have a problem amounts to a personal attack and one that is wholly unfounded given my track record. I was only trying to point out a flaw in your logic. I am very conservative about trying to suggest solutions because I think we have yet to adequately flesh out the problem space. Trying to come up with solutions when the problem isn't well understood tends to produce bad solutions that make problems worse.

Re: We Still Let Harassers Participate in Our Community

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, out of curiosity into whether you have any personal insight into the matter at all, whatsoever, may I ask whether you're a woman? (I will proceed with the assumption that you are.) So, you are literally taking my right away to be busy. I can literally "lead someone on", as in, express interest - then if I ignore their 8 texts, you are saying that I have expressed a lack of interest? Even though I have e…

I'm a man. Gender is irrelevant and you are way too focused on it. You know what you don't do? Send someone you are interested in 8 texts if they are not responding. You let it go and get on with your life. Both women and men have harassed their romantic interests. This is not something only one gender is guilty of. Stalking is a thing that happens when one person can't accept the idea that they've been rejected. Tha…

so you're saying I've been harrassed when I was happy to get 8 texts and they're still (still!) sitting their unanswered. Glad to know you get to decide that I'm being harassed! Glad to know that you decided I've rejected that person!

By the way I have the same POV as nadya in this thread. I'm not arguing that anything is Okay, just that not answering a text isn't the same as rejecting that person.

The poster upstream who said her phrasing made him think she was leading him on, is right IMO. The screenshot should also say a no.

Re: We Still Let Harassers Participate in Our Community

#65
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're bieng more of a bully than the author's harasser. Look at your language, you want to crucify people because they didn't destroy somebody's reputation and possibly their entire career when a member of your group asked them to? That's scary.

Are you saying that people whose career or reputation depends on not harassing women should be allowed to get away with harassing women more than others? A great example of the right way to do things is how the BBC kicked out their biggest star, Jeremy Clarkson, due to a single case of assault when the victim didn't even make a complaint. It shows that they don't give license to abuse people to the more valuable empl…

> Are you saying that people whose career or reputation depends on not harassing women should be allowed to get away with harassing women more than others?

Not at all. I'm saying the only evidence provided from the author is a flirtatious text where the "harasser" was attempting to engage in consentual intercourse with another adult. Was it inappropriate? Apparently, but reaching out for human contact is a normal and healthy part of life.

The person I was responding to was fantasizing about destroying this person's livelihood and the livelihoods of others who refused to take part in this destruction. One person fantasized about a natural and healthy human activity and the other fantasized about crucifiction. There may have been some vague power dynamics in the (alleged) harassment but that doesn't measure up to active and aggressive threats.

The Clarkson sacking was the result of a police investigation and regardless of whether the ass-kicking was deserved or not there was a physical assault with evidence that it happened. Why we would even compare a woman having to say no in a clear and adult way to a man being physically assaulted is beyond me.

Re: We Still Let Harassers Participate in Our Community

#66
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A person does have to say something in many scenarios. Like the one I gave. Or the result can be very wrong. Rejecting unwanted advances can take the form of silence. Especially over text message. It's a pretty common way to reject someone without creating an awkward situation. If one party can't take the hint then they are more likely being wilfully ignorant (don't want to accept rejection). And even if they aren'…

>And even if they aren't, it's not an excuse to harass. Fuck off with this "not an excuse to harass" bullshit. I've already said it's not an excuse and harassment is never OK. I've already stated, twice now and this is a third time that I'm not taking the actions of the article into consideration so harassment is not the issue here. Do you understand? I want to make sure I'm being very explicit with my communication…

You are a very angry and misguided individual. Grow up and learn how to communicate in a non-creepy manner and you will be fine.

Your situations are ridiculous and not as black-and-White as you make them out to be.

Re: We Still Let Harassers Participate in Our Community

#67
post #63
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're suggesting I should refer to girls I've interacted with when I was 9 years old as women, then I disagree with your suggestion. You have no solution besides shaming and locking up men who are harassing women. Is it working? Women are getting harassed and men are getting shamed. If that's your ideal of male-female relations then I suggest it is you who has a problem with not wanting to find out the root cause…

No, that is not my ideal of male-female relations. I have a track record of speaking out against that. You suggesting I have a problem amounts to a personal attack and one that is wholly unfounded given my track record. I was only trying to point out a flaw in your logic. I am very conservative about trying to suggest solutions because I think we have yet to adequately flesh out the problem space. Trying to come up w…

Then don't start personal attacks to begin with.

We could focus on the women and you'd complain it's men who needs to change. Focus on the ways to change men and you're complaining we aren't focusing on the women.

I hereby put my hands up and give up caring about women I don't know being harassed. They can solve their own problems and me caring about it only gets me attacked personally, no matter what ideas I offer. Seems like the only behaviour you'd suggest is to have a negative outlook towards men and that not something I'd agree with. I have a pretty good guess a lot of harassment comes from a man not knowing how to deal with women, because it's something that happened to me. Instead of willing to consider this viewpoint you dismiss the idea completely and go after me and my logic. You have a strong track record and you don't need people like me to tell you what's happening.

It will be for the best.

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