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Let’s sunset C/C++

trevorjim.com

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Re: Let’s sunset C/C++

#21

Post by serichsen »

Timmons wrote: post #5

This is quite ignorant of why C/C++ is used. It is used for that exact memory control and access that this article demonizes so that we can have efficient and thought out systems. When those systems aren't well thought out or secure you have security issues. C/C++ lets you build a wobbly treehouse _and_ a secure fortress. It is up to the developer which one is made...

> When those systems aren't well thought out or secure you have security issues.

All evidence says that there are no well thought out and secure systems written in C or C++.

If there is a way to do it, it has not been publicized yet.

Re: Let’s sunset C/C++

#22

Post by tempodox »

To this, I can only agree. I love C and I can write secure software in it, but the costs of doing that are generally not worthwhile in today's market (if they ever were).

C will still have a place in its niche, but it shouldn't be considered the standard general-purpose language any more.

Our processors have gotten so fast we can run slow-motion versions without even noticing (smartphone & tablet CPUs), so don't tell me anything other than C would be “too slow”.

C is unbeatable as long as riding rodeo on your raw CPU is all you could ever want. But software has evolved, mankind's dependency on software has evolved, and so have our expectations & standards. It's time to learn the lesson and move on.

Re: Let’s sunset C/C++

#23

Post by zamalek »

J_Darnley wrote: post #12

So what language to you propose we use to rewrite all video and audio software? Javascript, Lua, Brainfuck, what? Sure make every numeric value a double, nobody ever wants a char. Don't allow contiguous blocks of memory. Or if you do check every access is within the bounds. Its all safe! Nobody cares that suddenly we can't decode an MP3 in realtime. Are you going to outlaw assembly too? What utter insanity.

I suppose the answer would be Rust or similar because they aim to be as fast as C/++; however, that is currently only a goal and most certainly not the reality (according to some source I read a month or two back that I can no longer find).

I also hope to end C/++, but it's simply not time yet.

Re: Let’s sunset C/C++

#24

Post by swah »

Another way to look at it: the ones that can write that software are still chosing C/C++. The ones who would like to use Haskell/Rust/Java are discussing online.. :)

Re: Let’s sunset C/C++

#25

Post by [deleted] »

fiedzia wrote: post #4
just4once wrote: post #2

Absurdly absurd ideas and ramblings. I suppose we can write our "safe languages" in "safe languages" then we'll never have need of really programming anything ourselves. We can simply pat together what ever is "safe" for us to do in our little play sandbox and act like we're adults who understand the problems faced when programming in "real" languages. This would be similar to replacing all automobiles with stuffed a…

Rule 20.4 (required): Dynamic heap memory allocation shall not be used. Good luck writing misra-compliant web browser. And yes, safe languages can be written in safe languages. See rust and servo.

[deleted]

Re: Let’s sunset C/C++

#27

Post by JustSomeNobody »

fiedzia wrote: post #4
just4once wrote: post #2

Absurdly absurd ideas and ramblings. I suppose we can write our "safe languages" in "safe languages" then we'll never have need of really programming anything ourselves. We can simply pat together what ever is "safe" for us to do in our little play sandbox and act like we're adults who understand the problems faced when programming in "real" languages. This would be similar to replacing all automobiles with stuffed a…

Rule 20.4 (required): Dynamic heap memory allocation shall not be used. Good luck writing misra-compliant web browser. And yes, safe languages can be written in safe languages. See rust and servo.

"... misra-compliant web browser."

Surely this is a joke.

Re: Let’s sunset C/C++

#28

Post by w8rbt »

pjmlp wrote: post #16
w8rbt wrote: post #11

Secure software can be written in C or C++ (they are two different languages BTW). For example, OpenBSD and OpenSSH. Both are written in C and both have very good security records.

You are joking in regards to OpenSSH right?

No, not at all. It's likely the most secure remote access software that you could use.

http://www.openssh.com/security.html

Re: Let’s sunset C/C++

#29

Post by serichsen »

J_Darnley wrote: post #12

So what language to you propose we use to rewrite all video and audio software? Javascript, Lua, Brainfuck, what? Sure make every numeric value a double, nobody ever wants a char. Don't allow contiguous blocks of memory. Or if you do check every access is within the bounds. Its all safe! Nobody cares that suddenly we can't decode an MP3 in realtime. Are you going to outlaw assembly too? What utter insanity.

The question is about defaults. Current default of C and C++ is to cut all corners wherever it is not clearly impossible (sometimes even then). That is the insanity.

Of course you should optimize wherever sensible.

Re: Let’s sunset C/C++

#30

Post by flohofwoe »

Excuse my french, but: What a load of bullshit.

It's not the language, it's the tools.

Add a static analyzer pass to each C/C++ compiler which is switched on by default. Add clang-address-sanitizer-style code when compiling in debug mode, and also offer runtime checks as option for release-compiled code. Both combined would have caught 99% of memory safety issues that pop up now and then.

If necessary extend the language with optional ownership keywords a'la Rust, and allow me to switch off features I don't require to reduce complexity.

Most important of all: provide options that I don't need to pay at runtime for memory safety with precious CPU cycles.

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