Calling asl "signed english" is usually a good indication that the writer doesn't know much about the subject. Then they go on to say: > "It turns out that the information content of handshapes is on average just 0.5 bits per handshape less than the theoretical maximum. By contrast, the information content per phoneme in spoken English is some 3 bits lower than the maximum." Talking about the information content of s…
The Puzzling Paradox of Sign Language
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Re: The Puzzling Paradox of Sign Language
#22Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Nowadays, there's some factual statements that are almost literally impossible to say in Japanese because the words/phrases/grammar to say them don't match up. Care to elaborate? As a English/Mandarin/Japanese speaker, I am certainly acutely aware of the limitations of translating from one language in to another, but find such an assertion hard to accept without concrete examples.
> Care to elaborate? As a English/Mandarin/Japanese speaker, I am certainly acutely aware of the limitations of translating from one language in to another, but find such an assertion hard to accept without concrete examples. I'm nowhere near fluent in Japanese, so I'm not the best person to get into it. I do have a couple good friends who are native speakers or expats with a very high level of understanding. A good…
Now, let me clarify upfront that my minor (technically a "joint-degree", but effectively a minor) is in Linguistics, so this may get wordy and technical.
What you are mostly describing is a not a restriction of the language itself, but of social conventions. You can certainly say "いいえ、できません". While it is true that Japanese has a relatively substantial honorific structure when compared to English, there are other languages with even richer systems, such as Malay.
One thing that makes Japanese stand out amongst the ones you have listed is the fact that it is a language isolate, meaning there are no other languages that are "linguistically related". (While technically in the Japonic family, there is some controversy around the categorization of Japanese dialects, which muddies the family categorization as well). Korean is another isolate, and, as far as I know, the only language that is remotely like Japanese in terms of grammar and morphology. German, Dutch and Spanish all belong in the Indo-European family, and there are some obvious structural similarities. Mandarin Chinese is certainly not Indo-European, but it also lacks a non-trivial inflection system, and has a basic word order that is not unlike Germanic languages.
Japanese, on the other hand, does not share this trait. Consequently, there are certain grammar constructs in English that are essentially impossible to transform into Japanese; it takes a speaker sufficient in both to first completely comprehend an utterance and then re-express it. Add to this the many subtle semantic differences in words, and it's not surprising that you will get a lot of "that's hard to say"s. However, this doesn't mean that something is untranslatable. Speaking from experience, us polyglots do occasionally use it as an excuse that more precisely means "the exchange which must take place for me to extract more context out of you to effectively perform your request is something I don't want to spend energy on at the moment." ;)
Re: The Puzzling Paradox of Sign Language
#23This is only interesting if one doesn't realize that sign language is its own language, rather than simply signed English. Syntax and word order are entirely different, and much information is encoded in what one might call 'tone'—eg, the energy or rhythm with which any sign is performed—that in English would be communicated with full words or suffixes. These facts are patent to anybody with a passing acquaintance of…
It would be interesting to discover that some languages are less efficient than others, and what effect (if any) it has on the economy. I think Japanese probably is more complicated that English - so why does it not appear to slow them down? Or maybe it slows them down in some respect (maybe having to sacrifice a lot of childrens play time to rote learning?), and they compensate in other ways?
Re: The Puzzling Paradox of Sign Language
#24(1) I'm pretty sure it was Klima and Bellungi's book The Signs of Language that pointed out that arm muscles are slower than vocal muscles, and therefore ASL does things that spoken languages can't do in order to maintain the same communication bandwidth. (That book was written ten years ago.)
(2) The handshape is only a very small part of what conveys meaning in sign language; one of the classic newbie mistakes in learning ASL is to look at your conversation partner's hands, rather than his or her eyes. A great deal of grammatical information is communicated purely by facial expression; for example, raised eyebrows can indicate a yes/no question, lowered eyebrows can indicate a wh-question, and just looking in one direction or shifting the body slightly can substitute for a pronoun. There are also movements of the mouth that act as adverbial modifiers for a sign, to indicate things like "almost", "carelessly", "with difficulty", "distant in time or space", and a whole bunch of other stuff.
(3) With regard to the hand and arm movements themselves, the location and movement of the signs are as significant as the handshape. The signs for "father" and "mother" differ only in location. The signs for "paper" and "cheese" differ only in movement. Skimming the article, it appears that the authors didn't bother taking location and movement because linguists disagree on how to categorize those other features. But that's no excuse for completely leaving them out of your analysis. That's methodological laziness.
(4) Modulation of movement also has grammatical significance which in English would be conveyed by modal verbs or adverbs. For example, a change in how you make the sign for "to be red" turns it into "to become red". The Klima and Bellungi book above has more of this kind of thing.
(5) There's also the ASL classifier system, which provides a concise way of using the relative position and motion of hands to indicate the relative position and motion of objects in physical or metaphorical space. I once saw a lecture at which a woman very eloquently used this to describe herself advancing through all four years of her college education while a friend of hers kept repeating her "prep" year. (Gallaudet has a pre-freshman year for students who, thanks to the ocean of suck that is the American deaf-ed system, don't arrive with adequate college preparation.)
There have been over thirty years of serious linguistic research into ASL, and judging from the references, these jokers didn't do more than strip-mine it for a list of handshapes. AAARRRGGGHH!
Re: The Puzzling Paradox of Sign Language
#25Along similar lines as the article, I've always thought about how we can be more efficient when speaking. If you notice, there is a tendency to be more and more efficient on the web, with abbreviations/acronyms. Imagine a world where we say "lol" just as though we type it (not hard to imagine). Now take it a few steps further, by considering the vast amount of different sounds/tones our vocal chords can create, imagi…
Re: The Puzzling Paradox of Sign Language
#26Earlier quoted context omitted.
Good comment. That said... > 'Japanese words tend to be longer than English words. So how do the Japanese communicate as effectively as we do?' I speak some Japanese. Japanese is actually a bit harder to communicate in than most other languages. The emphasis on social unity and modesty has evolved to make the language incredibly nuanced and complex. Nowadays, there's some factual statements that are almost literally…
> Nowadays, there's some factual statements that are almost literally impossible to say in Japanese because the words/phrases/grammar to say them don't match up. Care to elaborate? As a English/Mandarin/Japanese speaker, I am certainly acutely aware of the limitations of translating from one language in to another, but find such an assertion hard to accept without concrete examples.
While travelling and working in Sweden I picked up enough of the language (alas, now gone) to converse reasonably well over dinner with people I hadn't met before. They were fluent in English, my colleague was fluent in Swedish.
I asked about the word "varsågod." It seemed to have many translations, often different for different contexts, and I was wondering how they all perceived it. The consensus came only after about an hour of back and forth. There is no translation, even when the context is known.
The best I've come up with is "All is well," but that really, really doesn't cover it. Sometimes it means "You're welcome," sometimes it means "Here you are," and there are other contexts.
And the English translations don't carry the extra meanings, the baggage. It just feels untranslatable. No translation I've seen or heard carries all of the meanings and nuances.
Another example is from French. The phrase "Je vous en prie" is often translated as "You're welcome," but it's also very, very formal. You'd hear it from staff in hotels, perhaps, and perhaps in the very best restaurants.
But the point is that while it effectively means "You're welcome" it actually carries more information. It also says: and our relationship is a formal one, such as staff to employer, and I'm in the subordinate position.
There is no way to say that in English without spelling it out explicitly, and once you've done so you've lost the sense of the original anyway.
It's like explaining a joke. Once you've done so you've given the understanding needed, but lost the humor.
Similarly with so many things in translation. To carry all the meaning properly sometimes you have to explain or describe the meaning, and then it's no longer actually a translation.
The thing I find most interesting is just how many monoglots claim that this can't possibly be true and give many excellent reasons, while so many polyglots simply accept it as fact. My wife is fluent in French and works copy-editing translations from German (and other languages) into English. I've seen this problem "in action" as it were, and it's why good translators cost so much, while mediocre translators don't.
EDIT: corrected the Swedish word - thanks. My spoken and reading Swedish was always better than my written.
Re: The Puzzling Paradox of Sign Language
#27Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Nowadays, there's some factual statements that are almost literally impossible to say in Japanese because the words/phrases/grammar to say them don't match up. Care to elaborate? As a English/Mandarin/Japanese speaker, I am certainly acutely aware of the limitations of translating from one language in to another, but find such an assertion hard to accept without concrete examples.
I'm not sufficiently familiar with Japanese, but I can relate two specific stories from my own experience. While travelling and working in Sweden I picked up enough of the language (alas, now gone) to converse reasonably well over dinner with people I hadn't met before. They were fluent in English, my colleague was fluent in Swedish. I asked about the word "varsågod." It seemed to have many translations, often differ…
If you feel like procrastinating and want to have a laugh at how ambiguous and strange Swedish can be I recommend Mastering Swedish by slay radio: http://www.slayradio.org/mastering_swedish.php
Re: The Puzzling Paradox of Sign Language
#28Along similar lines as the article, I've always thought about how we can be more efficient when speaking. If you notice, there is a tendency to be more and more efficient on the web, with abbreviations/acronyms. Imagine a world where we say "lol" just as though we type it (not hard to imagine). Now take it a few steps further, by considering the vast amount of different sounds/tones our vocal chords can create, imagi…
Based on how I, like, hear many people, like, talking, I'm, like, not so sure it's, like, inevitable.
Re: The Puzzling Paradox of Sign Language
#29Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm not sufficiently familiar with Japanese, but I can relate two specific stories from my own experience. While travelling and working in Sweden I picked up enough of the language (alas, now gone) to converse reasonably well over dinner with people I hadn't met before. They were fluent in English, my colleague was fluent in Swedish. I asked about the word "varsågod." It seemed to have many translations, often differ…
I think you meant to type the composite word "varsågod" (and not "Be so god" ^^), it's not a phrase. A similar problem exist with "lagom" which roughly means something like: "enough, not to much or to little.", with a strong positive meaning. It also goes the other way too as computer engineer doesn't have a good exact translation as the English "engineer" is more nuanced than the Swedish "Ingengör". If you feel like…
Re: The Puzzling Paradox of Sign Language
#30One obvious point that somehow isn't mentioned in the article: The speed of human language isn't limited by the ability of "the language" to encode a stream of information. It is limited by the human ability to create and understand the bits of language information. And that limit is much lower than the human ability to take in other streams of information. Vision lets you take in mega-bytes of information in seconds…
I've read that people with extraordinary memory or mental arithmetic ability often visualize shapes and perform operations on them to get at the answer. And I guess "normal" people use "subvocalization" instead. In light of your comment, that makes sense.