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Julian Assange 'disappointed' as sex assault case dropped

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Re: Julian Assange 'disappointed' as sex assault case dropped

#121
post #81
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except many of the claims his supporters make, including in this thread, are that what he allegedly did aren't actually crimes. The UK court system has repeatedly held that they are analogous to UK sexual offences. Others have argued that the Swedish prosecutor can't issue a warrant, again the Supreme Court decided otherwise. Given the scope of the UK Human Rights Act, along with the argued abuse of process claims, I…

I imagine the UK courts would hold that a rape charge in the UK is similar to a rape charge in Sweden. That makes sense. However, there's a difference between acknowledging that and ruling on whether the allegations have merit. They specifically didn't look at anything other than the allegations made on the European Arrest Warrant. From the High Court decision: > In respect of each offence, Mr Assange contended that…

It would be rather helpful if you sourced your quotes. The Queen's Bench ruling (which does contain the apposite phrase in para 71) in http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/02_11_11_assange....

Except that if you'd read further (or not taken the Wikileaks edited highlights) the court immediately goes on to say "Nonethless, as the material was put before us de bene esse, we will express our view on what difference it would have made if we have taken it into account in determining whether the description of the conduct was fair and accurate."

The court did specifically look at whether the offences alleged would constitute crimes in the UK for instance in para 96: "In our view, therefore, the description was fair and accurate; the offence was, for the reasons we have given an offence under the law of England and Wales; the requirement of dual criminality was satisfied".

On the rape question in para 109: "In our view on this basis what was described in the EAW was rape." it even goes on "A requirement of proof of coercion, if that is what Swedish law requires, is a more onerous test for the prosecution to satisfy than the test for consent in the 2003 Act".

So the court went "you showed us this, we don't need it but we're going to point out how it doesn't help your case anyway". Assange got spanked by the British Courts, repeatedly, who were convinced that he had to go to Sweden to assist in the investigation into serious offences. Despite the best efforts of some very experienced and serious lawyers no Human Rights angle was found to stop it either.

Re: Julian Assange 'disappointed' as sex assault case dropped

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're saying that if I take something that belongs to another person, but I believe that I should have it, no crime has been committed? That sounds like an interesting theory on Crime and Punishment . Edit: If you feel I've misunderstood the parent comment, please provide a better explanation.

If you take something that belongs to another person, but you believe you do own it, no crime has been committed. For example, if walk out of a store thinking you paid for a bag of groceries when in fact the card reader had errored and you need to swipe again. That isn't shoplifting, that is a mistake of fact. This concept is called "mens rea" or "guilty mind". A statute for each crime should define what type of mens…

It's unfortunate that you're absolutely correct. Mens rea is one of the worst concepts to ever enter the legal system.

Re: Julian Assange 'disappointed' as sex assault case dropped

#124
post #120

There's a concrete dispute mentioned in the article. Assange says the Swedes can interview him any time in the embassy, the Swedes say they've asked, and been waiting months, for permission. The article blithely quotes these conflicting statements and makes no attempt to find out who is telling the truth or what the details are.

I don't think those are quite conflicting. It sounds like Assange says he's happy for the Swedes to do it, but the Swedes are saying they can't get permission from Ecuador. OTOH we have Assange saying "this Swedish official refused both", which could be conflicting, but it's pretty vague.

Assange is claiming they can talk to him any time and the Swedes are saying they've tried and can't. That's a pretty direct conflict. Either one or the other is being disingenuous at best and outright lying at worst.

Re: Julian Assange 'disappointed' as sex assault case dropped

#125

"Those doubting the degree of ruthlessness Assange can expect should remember the forcing down of the Bolivian president's plane in 2013 - wrongly believed to be carrying Edward Snowden." If you think of Sweden as ABBA, think again: "In December 2010, The Independent revealed that the two governments had discussed his onward extradition to the US." "The rendition and subsequent torture of two Egyptian political refug…

If Sweden was such a terrible place for Assange to be why did apply for a work permit there? Why did he leave and go the UK, after all a nation with far closer ties to the US?

Onward extradition would have been far more complicated via Sweden as the UK would have had to approve it as well. Why not just have the US extradite Assange from the UK to the USA directly? If the CIA was going to concoct a rape claim why not make it a little more than "she was asleep"? If the USA is ruthless in the pursuit of its enemies (except of course Snowdon is a US citizen who, rightly or wrongly, very much did break US law) then why has it been so decidedly non ruthless in the pursuit of Assange?

Re: Julian Assange 'disappointed' as sex assault case dropped

#126
post #120

There's a concrete dispute mentioned in the article. Assange says the Swedes can interview him any time in the embassy, the Swedes say they've asked, and been waiting months, for permission. The article blithely quotes these conflicting statements and makes no attempt to find out who is telling the truth or what the details are.

I don't think those are quite conflicting. It sounds like Assange says he's happy for the Swedes to do it, but the Swedes are saying they can't get permission from Ecuador. OTOH we have Assange saying "this Swedish official refused both", which could be conflicting, but it's pretty vague.

I read in an article posted here yesterday that the reason for the stalemate is that Ecuador is demanding Sweden make statements to the effect that Assange is in a legal asylum at the embassy. Sweden don't want to get involved in that side of things, they just want to interview him and so have refused that demand.

Re: Julian Assange 'disappointed' as sex assault case dropped

#127
post #33
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. But that is often left out. (No accusation intended. It's just something people forget.)

Well he became afraid of extradition conveniently at the point at which he was facing extradition. Before then he was quite happy to spend lots of time in the West apparently unconcerned by the threat. Something that is often left out... The UK was happy to extradite him to Sweden, we extradite people to the US as long as they aren't going to be executed. So quite why the UK extraditing him to Sweden who would then e…

In fairness, most people only become afraid of something when they're facing it.

As for the conspiracy theory, maybe it was the product of paranoid thinking. A more obvious conspiracy theory to me is that the US saw an opportunity to smear Assange and lent on Sweden to trump up the charges.

Re: Julian Assange 'disappointed' as sex assault case dropped

#128
post #126
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think those are quite conflicting. It sounds like Assange says he's happy for the Swedes to do it, but the Swedes are saying they can't get permission from Ecuador. OTOH we have Assange saying "this Swedish official refused both", which could be conflicting, but it's pretty vague.

I read in an article posted here yesterday that the reason for the stalemate is that Ecuador is demanding Sweden make statements to the effect that Assange is in a legal asylum at the embassy. Sweden don't want to get involved in that side of things, they just want to interview him and so have refused that demand.

Ecuador has denied this:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/08/10/us-sweden-assange-...

> The Ecuadorian embassy also said in its statement that no representative from Sweden has turned up on their steps to interview Assange.

> Karin Rosander, spokeswoman for Swedish Prosecution Authority, said a prosecutor had been to London in June, ready to question the Australian, but lacking necessary permissions, she had to return home without visiting the embassy.

So the prosecutor flew to London but wasn't willing to just take a taxi over to the embassy and knock on the door?

Re: Julian Assange 'disappointed' as sex assault case dropped

#129

"Those doubting the degree of ruthlessness Assange can expect should remember the forcing down of the Bolivian president's plane in 2013 - wrongly believed to be carrying Edward Snowden." If you think of Sweden as ABBA, think again: "In December 2010, The Independent revealed that the two governments had discussed his onward extradition to the US." "The rendition and subsequent torture of two Egyptian political refug…

From that link: "the Swedish authorities have never explained why they refuse to give Assange a guarantee that they will not extradite him on to the US under a secret arrangement agreed between Stockholm and Washington."

Weeeell, maybe because Sweden is a democracy and has no "authorities" that can guarantee the outcome of hypothetical future legal proceedings.

Also, note that Assange was obviously in Sweden when the rape allegedly happened, and only became conveniently afraid of extraditiom to US after those allegations surfaced.

Re: Julian Assange 'disappointed' as sex assault case dropped

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you take something that belongs to another person, but you believe you do own it, no crime has been committed. For example, if walk out of a store thinking you paid for a bag of groceries when in fact the card reader had errored and you need to swipe again. That isn't shoplifting, that is a mistake of fact. This concept is called "mens rea" or "guilty mind". A statute for each crime should define what type of mens…

It's unfortunate that you're absolutely correct. Mens rea is one of the worst concepts to ever enter the legal system.

When I first learned of it I thought it made a lot of sense, so I would genuinely be really very interested to read you expand on its harms.
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