Julian Assange 'disappointed' as sex assault case dropped • Hacker News Board

Re: Julian Assange 'disappointed' as sex assault case dropped

#81

Post by pfg » Thu, Aug 13, 2015, 1:54 PM UTC

cmdkeen wrote: post #60

andyjohnson0 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The extradition hearing took three days, which is hardly a "very lengthy process". And it didn't validate the Swedish judicial process because that isn't its function. An EAW extradition hearing in the UK is merely to establish that an extraditable offence is alleged, that the party requesting the extradition has standing, and that there are no Human Rights Act issues [1]. Persons facing extradition on an EAW don't g…

Except many of the claims his supporters make, including in this thread, are that what he allegedly did aren't actually crimes. The UK court system has repeatedly held that they are analogous to UK sexual offences. Others have argued that the Swedish prosecutor can't issue a warrant, again the Supreme Court decided otherwise. Given the scope of the UK Human Rights Act, along with the argued abuse of process claims, I…

I imagine the UK courts would hold that a rape charge in the UK is similar to a rape charge in Sweden. That makes sense. However, there's a difference between acknowledging that and ruling on whether the allegations have merit.

They specifically didn't look at anything other than the allegations made on the European Arrest Warrant. From the High Court decision:

> In respect of each offence, Mr Assange contended that the court should examine the underlying material from the prosecution file... [W]hat was provided contained the principal statements of the complainants and other material which made it obvious that the conduct of which he was accused was not fairly and accurately described in the EAW. [...]

> In our view, it is not apposite to take into account the material in the prosecution file. [...]

Re: Julian Assange 'disappointed' as sex assault case dropped

#82

Post by spiralpolitik » Thu, Aug 13, 2015, 1:57 PM UTC

cmdkeen wrote: post #33

fwn wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. But that is often left out. (No accusation intended. It's just something people forget.)

Well he became afraid of extradition conveniently at the point at which he was facing extradition. Before then he was quite happy to spend lots of time in the West apparently unconcerned by the threat. Something that is often left out... The UK was happy to extradite him to Sweden, we extradite people to the US as long as they aren't going to be executed. So quite why the UK extraditing him to Sweden who would then e…

In the UK extraditions, especially ones to the US, are usually won or lost in the court of public opinion. I suspect that Assange feels he would have a better chance of resisting extradition in the UK than in Sweden.

See the case of Gary McKinnon as an example (although McKinnon had much stronger grounds to appeal on than I expect Assange would)

Re: Julian Assange 'disappointed' as sex assault case dropped

#83

Post by happyscrappy » Thu, Aug 13, 2015, 1:59 PM UTC

Bohahahaha wrote: post #79

"Those doubting the degree of ruthlessness Assange can expect should remember the forcing down of the Bolivian president's plane in 2013 - wrongly believed to be carrying Edward Snowden." If you think of Sweden as ABBA, think again: "In December 2010, The Independent revealed that the two governments had discussed his onward extradition to the US." "The rendition and subsequent torture of two Egyptian political refug…

There is a reason Snowden didn't dump all the data he had into a public file like some meglomaniacle clown.

Re: Julian Assange 'disappointed' as sex assault case dropped

#84

Post by cmdkeen » Thu, Aug 13, 2015, 2:03 PM UTC

pfg wrote: post #71

hahainternet wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> His best strategy is therefore to stay in the embassy for now. Of course his best strategy is to avoid prosecution. That should mean we condemn him as a hypocrite, instead he has actual supporters blaming the victims!

The alleged victims are claiming no rape took place and that the police completely misinterpreted what they said, and later got railroaded by them. The initial prosecutor dropped the charges, but another prosecutor with a political background and a radical stance on what should be considered rape appealed that decision and got herself appointed to the case. She then declined multiple requests to schedule another inte…

Except the Swedish appeal courts have had several opportunities to review the warrant, and whilst they have reduced the severity of the allegations in 2010 they upheld it. Again in 2014 Assange went to the Swedish courts to try and get the warrant overturned and failed.

So the Swedish courts certainly don't agree that this is a case without merit.

Re: Julian Assange 'disappointed' as sex assault case dropped

#85

Post by trevelyan » Thu, Aug 13, 2015, 2:09 PM UTC

tedunangst wrote: post #74

trevelyan wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need to read the UK High Court ruling. As is explained there, if Sweden had sufficient evidence to charge Assange in absentia they could do so and issue a European Arrest Warrant. The problem is that this would require the prosecution to demonstrate probable cause and proportionality to a public Swedish court: > Under Swedish law the issue of a domestic detention order in absentia was a precondition to the issue…

That explains a possible UK -> Sweden extradition, not a Sweden -> US extradition.

As stated above, you need to read the UK Court Ruling at a minimum, since there is no point in discussion if you are not familiar with even the basic legal issues involved. And once you are done that you should read up on Swedish extradition policies.

The fact that extradition is legally possible and the Swedish prosecution is proceeding against all common reason and established judicial practice in the only way that keeps it possible is very much "probable cause" as regards the motives of the Swedish prosecution and thus constitutes reasonable grounds to believe that Assange's concerns about extradition to the United States are sensible.

Re: Julian Assange 'disappointed' as sex assault case dropped

#86

Post by zz1 » Thu, Aug 13, 2015, 2:10 PM UTC

comrh wrote: post #56

jamespo wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is Sweden a member of "Five Eyes" ?

No, it is made up of anglophone countries (Canada, UK, US, New Zealand, Australia)

But is still a close ally of the US when it comes to intelligence.

Re: Julian Assange 'disappointed' as sex assault case dropped

#87

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Aug 13, 2015, 2:16 PM UTC

wavefunction wrote: post #68

hedwall wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but the state can arrest you for rape in Sweden. It doesn't have to be an accusation coming from any of the victims.

Certainly, but if the victims in the case don't feel that they've been raped, perhaps that's more important than the technicalities of what the State may or may not do.

[deleted]

Re: Julian Assange 'disappointed' as sex assault case dropped

#88

Post by afarrell » Thu, Aug 13, 2015, 2:19 PM UTC

wavefunction wrote: post #68

hedwall wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but the state can arrest you for rape in Sweden. It doesn't have to be an accusation coming from any of the victims.

Certainly, but if the victims in the case don't feel that they've been raped, perhaps that's more important than the technicalities of what the State may or may not do.

Rape is a crime defined by its elements, not by whether or not the victim feels they were wronged. With all crimes, if a person commits a certain act with a certain intent/state of mind, they've committed a crime and the victim's feelings on the matter are irrelevant. Now, in a rape case, without the cooperation and testimony of the victim it is very hard to present enough evidence to convict a jury that the government has proved beyond a reasonable doubt that the crime's elements were all present.

If rape was defined just be whether or not the victim felt it was rape, the victim could change their mind after-the-fact and Assange would go from not-rapist to rapist (and possibly to not-rapist again) based on not on their own actions by based on someone's feelings of guilt, anger, intimidation, or forgiveness a month from the act. This only makes any sense if you view crimes as being individual injuries to one person. But that isn't how criminal law works. If I walk up to you in the middle of a hackathon and stab you in the forearm, I have indeed harmed you and you can sue me for damages in civil court. However, I have also harmed society, specifically that part of society where people assume they can go to hackathon a without being stabbed.

A great source to learn about the fundamentals of criminal law and criminal procedure is this page maintained by a former prosecutor who now works as s defense attorney in NYC. http://lawcomic.net/guide/?page_id=5

All of this should also apply on a smaller scale to communities with Codes of Conduct: http://thebias.com/2015/08/12/take-responsibility-for-handli...

EDIT: I am not a lawyer and comments from a random person on the Internet do not establish an a attourney-client relationship. For actual advice about criminal or international law, please contact Nathan Burney, an actual lawyer who also happens to maintain the illustrated educational resource that I've linked to and I think is fantastic.

Re: Julian Assange 'disappointed' as sex assault case dropped

#89

Post by anthony_d » Thu, Aug 13, 2015, 2:29 PM UTC

tedunangst wrote: post #74

trevelyan wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need to read the UK High Court ruling. As is explained there, if Sweden had sufficient evidence to charge Assange in absentia they could do so and issue a European Arrest Warrant. The problem is that this would require the prosecution to demonstrate probable cause and proportionality to a public Swedish court: > Under Swedish law the issue of a domestic detention order in absentia was a precondition to the issue…

That explains a possible UK -> Sweden extradition, not a Sweden -> US extradition.

It raises the question of what Sweden really wants. They admit to not having evidence of his guilt, and they don't have a real plan to get evidence. So why do they want him in their territory so badly?

Re: Julian Assange 'disappointed' as sex assault case dropped

#90

Post by kiiski » Thu, Aug 13, 2015, 2:29 PM UTC

Bohahahaha wrote: post #55

Assange was now 5yrs 'imprisoned', how much would he have gotten in Sweden on the charges? (if proven guilty)

I'm not a lawyer, and I don't know much about Swedish law, but based on Finnish law (which tends to be very similar to Swedish), the maximum combined sentence for all the charges would have been 7 years in prison.

The combined sentence is capped to the maximum for the most severe charge plus 3 years (when the most severe max is at least 4 years). In this case the most severe one is "lesser degree rape", for which the max is 4 years (that is still open).

Based on what I've read about the case, I would have been very surprised if the actual sentence was anywhere near the maximum. Probably more like a year for the rape and another for the other three charges, if they even hold up in court.