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Even when told not to, Windows 10 doesn't stop talking to Microsoft

arstechnica.co.uk

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Re: Even when told not to, Windows 10 doesn't stop talking to Microsoft

#41

Post by Hello71 »

Silhouette wrote: post #32
Hello71 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We have trouble enough with China trying to hack us literally thousands of times per day you mean you did "tail -f /var/log/secure". > God forbid Microsoft give 7 the boot for support like they did XP. god forbid Microsoft try to deprecate OSs after nearly 13 years. note that in 2001, the newest Linux kernel available was in the 2.4 series, with many people still using 2.2.

god forbid Microsoft try to deprecate OSs after nearly 13 years. You seem to have invented a decade. Windows 8 RTM was just over 3 years ago. Also, while I have some sympathy with both the idea that software isn't perfect and the idea that Microsoft need a viable business model, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a product like Windows 7 to come with essential support for a significant period of time, perhaps…

> god forbid Microsoft try to deprecate OSs after nearly 13 years.

> You seem to have invented a decade. Windows 8 RTM was just over 3 years ago.

> > God forbid Microsoft give 7 the boot for support like they did XP.

Re: Even when told not to, Windows 10 doesn't stop talking to Microsoft

#43

Post by drdaeman »

thescrewdriver wrote: post #27
PythonicAlpha wrote: post #14

You agreed to the privacy terms, so you are at the mercy of whatsoever Microsoft implemented. Windows 10 even could totally ignore your settings. I say this, not because I think that this is OK, but to reflect, that even the change of the settings do not save you from the harm, that was done from the privacy terms! Why downvoted? When you disagree, than give arguments, not gutless clicks!

Very few people will read the privacy terms. Just because they have a document people clicked 'agree' below without reading doesn't mean that MS should not be held to account for what Windows 10 is leaking. For many users not using Windows isn't an option.

Yet, I believe he has a point, and he had pointed to the very core problem.

If you hadn't read the EULA/ToS/Privacy Policy/etc, but had consented to those (by clicked "agree" in case of click-wrap packaging thingy), the fact is Microsoft is very unlikely to be held accountable if their actions are perfectly conforming to the agreement you had agreed without even reading. Something is surely not right with this whole situation.

Re: Even when told not to, Windows 10 doesn't stop talking to Microsoft

#44

Post by Silhouette »

saiya-jin wrote: post #28
Silhouette wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't surprise me. Moves in this direction were likely as soon as Nadella was chosen to be the new CEO and all but certain as soon as they announced the free upgrade push for Windows 10. It does disappoint me, though. Microsoft was one of the few major players in IT that could realistically have offered an antidote to the always-online, spy-on-everything, everything-is-a-service, subscribe-not-buy, force-updates…

they clearly don't care about their business customers, since this kind of childish behavior is a strict no-go for most companies with at least slightly decent IT. Fair enough, they actually create big holes in the market that startups can eventually fill in. Albeit it won't be easy (replacing Active directory, Exchange and Office suites), rewards are worth it. With that, Microsoft as desktop and server solution prov…

I'm sure Microsoft care very much about their business customers, which is why this seems such an odd strategic move. As you say, why try to copy a company like Google's business model when they have their own well-established one?

I'm half-wondering whether the plan has always been to prioritise the consumer market with Windows 10, and they're taking a reasonable punt on the fact that most businesses won't upgrade for a considerable time anyway, giving them enough opportunity to push out updates that address those businesses' concerns based on the early feedback before it really makes much difference. If that is the case then it's still possible that they have misjudged their market and they'll never fully recover from the negative initial reaction they've been receiving in recent weeks, but the strategy itself would be reasonably logical.

Re: Even when told not to, Windows 10 doesn't stop talking to Microsoft

#45

Post by PythonicAlpha »

thescrewdriver wrote: post #40
PythonicAlpha wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With such an argumentation, you could just trash any terms. As long as they are not against any law, they are valid, as long as they do not contain something that is totally unexpected (for example that you must pay Microsoft additional fees above the normal price). I also think, that Microsoft should be held accountable -- but it starts with those terms! I think, many people just rushed into Windows 10, because it w…

I've currently got a system with the Windows 10 downloaded, but I am hesitant to actually proceed with the (up?)grade. Like many people I assumed that it was just the same old Windows with more enhancements, not something with batshit crazy privacy defaults, that even when disabled still leak data.

That is the point. People are tricked into this and most of them did not read the terms or just ignored them.

But Microsoft is on the secure side, because you confirmed the terms -- and not many judges in the world will blame Microsoft in this situation, even when you argue, that you haven't read the terms. When you sign an other contract, you also can not argue, you haven't read the terms (even when they are in very small letters).

Re: Even when told not to, Windows 10 doesn't stop talking to Microsoft

#46

Post by EvanAnderson »

blackbeard wrote: post #34
Kenji wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't you just redirect all that stuff it sends to 127.0.0.1 by editing your hosts file?

You can, but we have 450 workstations and about 600 servers. That somewhat multiplies the problems.

If they're using DNS to resolve the name of the "mothership" just put a bogus record (or zone) in your DNS. If they're not using any name resolution protocol and you can isolate the IP addresses they're talking to just blackhole them at your border.

Re: Even when told not to, Windows 10 doesn't stop talking to Microsoft

#47

Post by drdaeman »

tomswartz07 wrote: post #31
thescrewdriver wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very few people will read the privacy terms. Just because they have a document people clicked 'agree' below without reading doesn't mean that MS should not be held to account for what Windows 10 is leaking. For many users not using Windows isn't an option.

The other thing to note is that they've changed the terms during an automatic update. The terms that they changed had several opt-out (as opposed to off-by-default opt-in) features that are mentioned in OP's article.

So, Microsoft did unethical but legal move.

That's almost exactly what he said - Legally, user is at MS' mercy, ethically that's not OK.

Re: Even when told not to, Windows 10 doesn't stop talking to Microsoft

#48

Post by at-fates-hands »

Silhouette wrote: post #17
tempodox wrote: post #6

Maybe I'm just jaded, but does that really surprise anyone? Most “developments” at MS have been nothing but successive layers of lipstick-on-a-pig. No amount of lipstick can make the pig underneath go away.

It doesn't surprise me. Moves in this direction were likely as soon as Nadella was chosen to be the new CEO and all but certain as soon as they announced the free upgrade push for Windows 10. It does disappoint me, though. Microsoft was one of the few major players in IT that could realistically have offered an antidote to the always-online, spy-on-everything, everything-is-a-service, subscribe-not-buy, force-updates…

>> Microsoft was one of the few major players in IT that could realistically have offered an antidote to the always-online, spy-on-everything, everything-is-a-service, subscribe-not-buy, force-updates-you-don't-want madness of recent years.

I felt the same way after they came out and said they really believe in protecting data and people's privacy. This is the exact opposite of all the big talk over the past few years. Disappointing for sure.

I tried upgrading to Win 10 this past weekend and it was a disaster. My 3 year old video card wasn't supported (no dual monitors) and then after I reverted back to 7, it killed all my network adapters so I couldn't connect to the internet. I had to nuke my entire OS and start fresh. I'm not upgrading anytime soon.

Here's some of those articles:

http://blogs.microsoft.com/blog/2013/12/04/protecting-custom...

http://blogs.microsoft.com/on-the-issues/2014/07/01/advancin...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/technology/microsoft-...

Re: Even when told not to, Windows 10 doesn't stop talking to Microsoft

#49

Post by ultramancool »

blackbeard wrote: post #5
bsilvereagle wrote: post #2

> And finally, some traffic seems quite impenetrable. We configured our test virtual machine to use an HTTP and HTTPS proxy (both as a user-level proxy and a system-wide proxy) so that we could more easily monitor its traffic, but Windows 10 seems to make requests to a content delivery network that bypass the proxy. Does this mean a Win10 machine setup to use something like Tor will leak the user's actual IP back to…

I've been on Windows 10 for a couple of days now. VPN traffic doesn't leak if the default route is the VPN interface. I tried it and my firewall went silent apart from the tunnel. I have absolutely no fucking idea what it is sending out though. It's always talking to something. I've turned everything off that is documented and use a local account and remove-appxpackage'd everything. Sorry but this release is a write…

I've been trying to use a software firewall and here's what I've blocked so far...

https://up1.ca/#JQqL3y0xqLZnxaOlYQ0s6A

And this is on a machine running Enterprise with privacy settings cranked, and most stuff disabled via group policy.

I'm trying to avoid blocking updates, but svchost is still out there talking to random microsoft servers. The worst part is that I can't differentiate between the servers used for tracking and the ones used for updates. I might have already blocked necessary stuff for updates.

At this point I'm really tempted to just wipe the machine and go back to 7, I've never felt so little trust in a machine I own. Even when I've run malware, at least I knew or could easily find out what was happening. This is just a big unknown to me. I'm seeing claims that it sends idle mic data even with Cortana disabled too, which is making me very paranoid even though the claims look sketchy at best.

Re: Even when told not to, Windows 10 doesn't stop talking to Microsoft

#50

Post by inversionOf »

thescrewdriver wrote: post #36

Until recently Microsoft had taken a far more reasonable approach to privacy than say Google. Anyone remember the MS "gmail man" ads mocking the way Google inspects your email when MS doesn't? It seems that MS under Nadella has taken a decidedly Google-like turn away from privacy with Windows 10. MS seems as hell-bent as Google and Facebook to collect as much data about you as possible, even if it is for seemingly in…

"Anyone remember the MS "gmail man" ads mocking the way Google inspects your email when MS doesn't?"

Did anyone actually fall for that?

Intelligent systems need information to function, and when the intelligence is personalized, it needs personal information. One of the reasons Google has succeeded is because of that personal information, providing services that have enough context that they are three quarters of the way to my destination before I've even started.

It is enormously jarring how over the top Microsoft went with Windows 10, with insane defaults and little justification, but this is the manifestation of the whole "cloud like" platform. Increasingly we expect a world where a device is just a terminal into a platform, and we can jump to different devices and form factors and the world is almost the same. That is what Microsoft is trying for, clumsily.

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