“It’s done, there is no way back. We tried, we failed” • Hacker News Board

Re: “It’s done, there is no way back. We tried, we failed”

#151

Post by vezzy-fnord » Wed, Aug 12, 2015, 4:37 PM UTC

jeremiep wrote: post #147

ChuckMcM wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like that term 'meta ignorance'. It is important to realize that ignorance isn't "bad" it can be fixed by learning, but its good to know that you have it so you can start fixing it. The other aspect of this that I see, even in seasoned engineers, is the 'presumption of simplicity'. Some things look really simple, but inside they are actually quite complicated. A smart phone is just a screen, a computer, a battery a…

I think you mix the meanings of simple and easy here. Simplicity is an absolute metric and describes the number of dependencies a thing has, while ease is a relative metric describing your understanding of said thing. For example, a singleton is easy to learn and easy to use, but since every function using it adds a hidden dependency it quickly grows in complexity to the point its impossible to reason about it withou…

Speaking of meta, I absolutely loathe how the basic distinction between simplicity and ease of use has since become a meme so persistently associated with Rich Hickey. There is nothing I can really do about it, but it nonetheless annoys me to no end.

Re: “It’s done, there is no way back. We tried, we failed”

#152

Post by nadams » Wed, Aug 12, 2015, 4:38 PM UTC

dmbaggett wrote: post #10

I wanted to believe that a team of 6 to 10 people could make a game that looked and felt AAA. Boy was I wrong! When we made Crash Bandicoot (with a team of 7), it was already virtually impossible to make a AAA game with 6-10 people, and that was 20 years ago. I tell inexperienced entrepreneurs to take their honest best estimate and multiply by 10. Or, as Mark Cerny (our producer on Crash) used to tell us, "add one an…

> I wanted to believe that a team of 6 to 10 people could make a game that looked and felt AAA.

What is your definition of AAA game? I believe Minecraft was created by 1 person (or at least started). I consider Terraria to be a AAA game and that was made by 3-4 people.

Re: “It’s done, there is no way back. We tried, we failed”

#153

Post by chx » Wed, Aug 12, 2015, 4:42 PM UTC

dragontamer wrote: post #58

michaelt wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, the original kickstarter [1] was for $50,000 with $72,000 raised. I'm not an expert on the economics of the video game industry, but I can't believe that would pay a team of 6-10 people for very long. [1] https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/45588301/woolfe-the-red...

It was probably enough for a loan however. Which is probably why the company folded at this time, because they ran out of funding and couldn't make it. With that said, I've been following Patreon and the financial models at Patreon just make more sense than Kickstarter. Various game development groups have constantly slipped their schedule, and backers respond typically by keeping the donations steady. As long as the…

Patreon seems awesome for one person teams: musicians, cartoonists etc. One of my favorites, Peter Hollens is above $7k/month now.

Re: “It’s done, there is no way back. We tried, we failed”

#154

Post by oaktowner » Wed, Aug 12, 2015, 4:45 PM UTC

nadams wrote: post #152

dmbaggett wrote: post #10

I wanted to believe that a team of 6 to 10 people could make a game that looked and felt AAA. Boy was I wrong! When we made Crash Bandicoot (with a team of 7), it was already virtually impossible to make a AAA game with 6-10 people, and that was 20 years ago. I tell inexperienced entrepreneurs to take their honest best estimate and multiply by 10. Or, as Mark Cerny (our producer on Crash) used to tell us, "add one an…

> I wanted to believe that a team of 6 to 10 people could make a game that looked and felt AAA. What is your definition of AAA game? I believe Minecraft was created by 1 person (or at least started). I consider Terraria to be a AAA game and that was made by 3-4 people.

In the parlance of the industry, AAA is indicative only of budget: "[the term AAA is] used for games with the highest development budgets and levels of promotion."[1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AAA_(video_game_industry)

Re: “It’s done, there is no way back. We tried, we failed”

#155

Post by wvenable » Wed, Aug 12, 2015, 4:46 PM UTC

lobo_tuerto wrote: post #62

From TA: "What about our Kickstarter backers? The people that believed in us from the beginning? People we made promises too. People we have let down. Even worse… people we will not be able to give the full rewards they invested in. The crazy thing is, that we have most of the rewards ready for postage. All the backer stickers and letters of enlistment just need a stamp. All the poster sets printed, signed and ready.…

Since they're filing for bankruptcy, they really can't go open source -- their IP needs to be sold to pay the creditors.

Re: “It’s done, there is no way back. We tried, we failed”

#156

Post by wisty » Wed, Aug 12, 2015, 4:46 PM UTC

eterm wrote: post #117

wisty wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only way to make a "AAA" game on a low budget now, competing with the massive asset libraries AAA games build up, is to create some kind of easily modded game, where players can build their own assets. Minecraft does this, in a way. Instead of a villiage-sized Barbie / GI Joe playset (with everything perfectly designed), you get a giant bucket of lego bricks. Not that Minecraft / df style games have done much bet…

Minecraft is in no way a "AAA" game. Yes, it's a hugely popular game, but it is the archetype of "indie game done good".

Calling the number 5 selling game of 2014 "not AAA" is pretty much semantic.

I agree, it's not AAA, in terms of assets, but I'm saying a "box of lego bricks" (or something like that - copying Minecraft won't work now) is the only way to compete with AAA on assets. PCG looks like a holy grail, but I doubt it (unless you can get it good enough to sell to AAA, then why wouldn't you just license the tool?).

Minecraft is AAA success. Your big-box retailer probably has Minecraft guide-books for sale. There's nothing that touches it. Papers, Please is an "indie game done good", and it sold maybe 5% of Minecraft.

Re: “It’s done, there is no way back. We tried, we failed”

#157

Post by jeremiep » Wed, Aug 12, 2015, 4:48 PM UTC

vezzy-fnord wrote: post #151

jeremiep wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you mix the meanings of simple and easy here. Simplicity is an absolute metric and describes the number of dependencies a thing has, while ease is a relative metric describing your understanding of said thing. For example, a singleton is easy to learn and easy to use, but since every function using it adds a hidden dependency it quickly grows in complexity to the point its impossible to reason about it withou…

Speaking of meta, I absolutely loathe how the basic distinction between simplicity and ease of use has since become a meme so persistently associated with Rich Hickey. There is nothing I can really do about it, but it nonetheless annoys me to no end.

I myself learned it from Rich in the very talk I linked to a few years ago and I'm the first to admit I didn't make that distinction beforehand. I've met more developers unaware of the distinction than otherwise, which is why I'm curious as to why you think it has become a meme?

Also note that english isn't my first language (I'm french Canadian) and even here in french the distinction is seldom made.

Re: “It’s done, there is no way back. We tried, we failed”

#158

Post by antjanus » Wed, Aug 12, 2015, 4:48 PM UTC

rkangel wrote: post #44

dmbaggett wrote: post #10

I wanted to believe that a team of 6 to 10 people could make a game that looked and felt AAA. Boy was I wrong! When we made Crash Bandicoot (with a team of 7), it was already virtually impossible to make a AAA game with 6-10 people, and that was 20 years ago. I tell inexperienced entrepreneurs to take their honest best estimate and multiply by 10. Or, as Mark Cerny (our producer on Crash) used to tell us, "add one an…

Issues with estimating, particularly something like this, mostly comes down to meta-ignorance: you don't know what you don't know. Given a particular problem of a similar sort to something he's worked on, an experienced engineer will be able to list 10 different issues that might crop up. An inexperienced engineer won't know of those potential problems and will just see the most optimistic path possible. When you're…

I think that the longer I've worked as a developer, the more inclined I am to be a pessimist. Sometimes projects look so freaking easy but then you realize you've just spent 3 weeks working on one feature out of a dozen and you're about to hit your first deadline.

I definitely do the "manager doubling" when it comes to estimates. If I think it'll take a month, I estimate 2 months to my boss. If I have to report several levels up, I multiply by 2 for every level.

Re: “It’s done, there is no way back. We tried, we failed”

#159

Post by Scuds » Wed, Aug 12, 2015, 4:49 PM UTC

themoonbus wrote: post #3

"But changing gameplay from 2D to 3D had a major impact on overall development cost (we found out a little too late)" Not to pile on, but this was very surprising to me... how could you not know that this would have a major impact?

"But changing gameplay from 2D to 3D had a major impact on overall development cost (we found out a little too late)"

You and every other developer making the transition from SNES to PS1 in the mid 90's.

Re: “It’s done, there is no way back. We tried, we failed”

#160

Post by Joeri » Wed, Aug 12, 2015, 4:54 PM UTC

rkangel wrote: post #44

dmbaggett wrote: post #10

I wanted to believe that a team of 6 to 10 people could make a game that looked and felt AAA. Boy was I wrong! When we made Crash Bandicoot (with a team of 7), it was already virtually impossible to make a AAA game with 6-10 people, and that was 20 years ago. I tell inexperienced entrepreneurs to take their honest best estimate and multiply by 10. Or, as Mark Cerny (our producer on Crash) used to tell us, "add one an…

Issues with estimating, particularly something like this, mostly comes down to meta-ignorance: you don't know what you don't know. Given a particular problem of a similar sort to something he's worked on, an experienced engineer will be able to list 10 different issues that might crop up. An inexperienced engineer won't know of those potential problems and will just see the most optimistic path possible. When you're…

The issue that I'm struggling with as I picked up experience and learned how to estimate better (read: higher) is of becoming a wet blanket. People will rave about this awesome thing we could do, and I'm the one saying "no, we can't, and this is why". That's why Steve Jobs said to stay foolish, it lets you chase after ideas that a rational person would consider too risky or just plain impossible.