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Thor – A Project to Hammer Out a Royalty Free Video Codec

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Re: Thor – A Project to Hammer Out a Royalty Free Video Codec

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, determining past obviousness can be hard. That's why you bring an expert or many experts to attest to how obvious the technique is. But you don't need an expert for novelty. Either you can show a prior art or you can't. I'll grant that there may be some some edge cases where the prior art needs some nuanced interpretation from an expert witness.

I think we agree :-). I was thinking of the more subtle version of novelty which is perhaps best expressed as, "as requested". Here is a fictional example of what I'm thinking about. Lets say someone asks you to make a mud pie[1] and put bits of lavastone in it. You make your mud pie and then you patent "system and method for creating a mud pie with lava stones." Perhaps there is no prior art because nobody asked for…

> Lets say someone asks you to make a mud pie[1] and put bits of lavastone in it.

This is begging the question (in the original sense of the phrase). The process is usually not somebody saying "make me a mudpie with lava stones". It usually starts with "how do I make a more attractive mudpie?" There are countless ways of doing so. You could use marbles, leaves, different mud, different levels of consistency... But maybe using lava stones gives you the most bang for the buck. So then you are really filling a patent on "method and system for increasing mudpie attractiveness".

The infamous Amazon one-click patent can similarly be viewed that way. The patent is not really solving the problem of "how do we enable purchases with one-click?" (the solution to which is blindingly obvious) but of "how do we get people to buy more things on our online store?" Now, the path from there to "one-click buying" may also be obvious, no doubt, but it's not as obvious as the path from "how do you build one-click?" to "here's how" simply because the solution space is so much bigger.

Re: Thor – A Project to Hammer Out a Royalty Free Video Codec

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are we saying you can no longer commercially develop a video codec? If it's so good for the industry, the patent holders could just choose to make it free. Everyone else could choose to :gasp: pay. I actually agree with your point. I just want to make it clear what that means. When it comes to patents, to me a compression algorithm is the closest thing in software to a mechanic device. At that level could patent equi…

The "crummy patents" and "having patents at all" are very much intertwined. The problem is the bit about obviousness to someone skilled in the art. Even though I am a programmer, I know nothing at all about video codecs, so nothing seems obvious at all. But to someone skilled at making codecs, it's a different matter. I remember very clearly when Ogg Theora was being developed the difficulty they had in choosing a te…

You can program it, you can use it. You might have trouble distributing it or selling it.

Is it better to patent something and tell the whole world how to do it? Or is it better to just keep it secret? It seems like some refinements to when you can sue might be in order, specifically, I might outlaw suing if you don't market an implementation of your own; that radically changes the value of a lot of property though.

Re: Thor – A Project to Hammer Out a Royalty Free Video Codec

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla(edit:SpaceX) is not bothering to file patents because it is just a blueprint for countries like China who quickly build knockoffs on someone else's R+D dime.

You are confusing Tesla and SpaceX. SpaceX is not filing for patents.

Didn't tesla open all their patents as well?

http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/all-our-patent-are-belong-yo...

Re: Thor – A Project to Hammer Out a Royalty Free Video Codec

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Natural law does exist. The difference between natural law and laws of a civilisation? I'll let Feynman hint at it... "Reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled". To give the context, this was said in relation to the Challenger Shuttle explosion.

Evidence showing the existence of natural law?

Natural laws are laws that any rational nation would arrive at... well, naturally. Killing is bad, so is stealing, etc... These are natural laws. Anyone capable of rational thought can see how these things would ultimately be bad for any society.

The others are laws that a nation creates as a result of specifics surrounding itself. Patents are one such example. These exist solely to spur the sharing of ideas by encouraging inventors to document and share them in detail so that they can later be used by society once the patent expires. A temporary monopoly is granted on an idea to encourage this sharing. This way, ideas aren't lost to eternity simply b/c the inventor didn't have the means to fabricate them. This concept is purely a construct of western nations and culture. It's unlikely an isolated society would arrive at a similar construct naturally.

Re: Thor – A Project to Hammer Out a Royalty Free Video Codec

#125

Why not throw the weight behind VP9? edit: I actually am curious, this isn't a question pointed at the validity of Thor. I just really want to see a great, open-source standard emerge and see people get behind it.

I'm no expert, but the article lists VP9 as "proprietary". Which I take to mean not open source, and potentially not free. Though the proprietariness could be a response to the issues they had with VP8 and suspected reactionary patenting.

Re: Thor – A Project to Hammer Out a Royalty Free Video Codec

#126
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hello, I'm the Daala tech lead. One of the things that made Opus a success was the contributions of others. We certainly don't have a monopoly on good ideas. We'll take pieces of Daala and stick them in Thor and pieces of Thor and stick them in Daala, and figure out what works best. Some of that experimentation has already begun: https://github.com/cisco/thor/pull/8 https://review.xiph.org/874/ https://www.ietf.org/p…

Yeah, we're going to have to start arguing on what to name the hybrid soon, since 'Vopus' is already taken.

Brainstorming fun names combining "Thor" and "Daala" reminded me of the Robert E. Howard villains "Thulsa Doom" and "Thoth-Amon". :)

Re: Thor – A Project to Hammer Out a Royalty Free Video Codec

#127

Why not throw the weight behind VP9? edit: I actually am curious, this isn't a question pointed at the validity of Thor. I just really want to see a great, open-source standard emerge and see people get behind it.

I'm no expert, but the article lists VP9 as "proprietary". Which I take to mean not open source, and potentially not free. Though the proprietariness could be a response to the issues they had with VP8 and suspected reactionary patenting.

VP9 is open source and royalty-free though. I'm confused.

Re: Thor – A Project to Hammer Out a Royalty Free Video Codec

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "crummy patents" and "having patents at all" are very much intertwined. The problem is the bit about obviousness to someone skilled in the art. Even though I am a programmer, I know nothing at all about video codecs, so nothing seems obvious at all. But to someone skilled at making codecs, it's a different matter. I remember very clearly when Ogg Theora was being developed the difficulty they had in choosing a te…

You can program it, you can use it. You might have trouble distributing it or selling it. Is it better to patent something and tell the whole world how to do it? Or is it better to just keep it secret? It seems like some refinements to when you can sue might be in order, specifically, I might outlaw suing if you don't market an implementation of your own; that radically changes the value of a lot of property though.

Actually, the crazy things about patents is the you can't legally program it, even for your own use.

As a programmer, I am firmly against software patents. They are a burden only. How many programmers troll patents thinking, "I'll look for useful techniques so that I can license them in my program"? Even if you wanted to, you couldn't because there are millions of them. And if you start looking, you may get sued for wilful infringement if you forget about something you saw and start using it.

That aside from any arguments about the patentability of ideas rather than inventions. I would be 100% in favour of software patents if the implementation was covered (i.e. the source code). If I used a different implementation for the same idea, then the patent wouldn't hold. Of course such a patent would be useless in a world where software is covered by copyright.

Re: Thor – A Project to Hammer Out a Royalty Free Video Codec

#129

Actually, I'm still rooting for Daala (from Xiph.org, the same folks that did so well with Opus). It's still a long ways away from being finished, but their work is awesome and I've been following it for a while now! Either way, having another effort competing to make a great format is not a problem. Here's hoping it goes well!

There was a great talk about Daala at Linux.conf.au 2015 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dmho4gcRvQ4). It has both general, and technical information about Daala, so it's well worth a watch.

Re: Thor – A Project to Hammer Out a Royalty Free Video Codec

#130

Actually, I'm still rooting for Daala (from Xiph.org, the same folks that did so well with Opus). It's still a long ways away from being finished, but their work is awesome and I've been following it for a while now! Either way, having another effort competing to make a great format is not a problem. Here's hoping it goes well!

Opus was actually a similar combination of two codecs, CELT from Xiph.org and SILK from Skype.

So similarly, there are now two projects, Daala from Xiph and Thor from Cisco, which are both preliminary but being worked on in the same group, so hopefully the best parts can be taken from each to produce a new, better open codec.

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