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Thor – A Project to Hammer Out a Royalty Free Video Codec

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Re: Thor – A Project to Hammer Out a Royalty Free Video Codec

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that's the real problem. Heck, it doesn't even need to be an NPE, it just needs to be one of the patent holders they're "avoiding" who wants to fire up some litigation. They don't even need to be able to win. An existing "legit" patent holder might choose to simply throw lawyers at as a tactic to delay or defeat a potential competitor. In that case, it comes down to a cost/benefit analysis for the would-be litiga…

Certainly the risk is better with a royalty-free video codec, though. In the case of Daala, the goal is to be sufficiently different to avoid these broad patents, too. Also, any companies contributing to the NETVC standard are required to declare IPR, which is not the case for MPEG standards.

> Certainly the risk is better with a royalty-free video codec, though.

I'm not sure what this means. A royalty-free video codec basically has a bullseye painted on it from the perspective of existing rightsholders. The only reason such entities might exercise restraint is because the cost/benefit analysis doesn't support litigation. Even if they don't think a competitor codec is a threat at the outset, there's nothing stopping an attacker from just sitting on the sidelines and waiting until the threat profile (and depth of infringers's pockets) becomes clearer. I.e. the "submarine patent" model, except it could even be a known patent in this case.

edit: clarity.

Re: Thor – A Project to Hammer Out a Royalty Free Video Codec

#33
No wonder Big Media hates tech, they are trying to take all their money away.

I think this is a great effort, and if you'll recall Google went and attempted to do the same thing with VP8, but found that people could file patents faster than they could release code[1]. I would certainly support a 'restraint of trade' argument, and a novelty argument which implies (although I know its impossible to currently litigate this way) that if someone else (skilled in the art) could come up with the same answer (invention) given the requirements, then the idea isn't really novel, it is simply "how someone skilled in the art would do it." I've watched as the courts stayed away from that theory, probably because it could easily be abused.

[1] Conspiracy theory or not, the MPEG-LA guys kept popping up additional patent threats once the VP8 code was released.

Re: Thor – A Project to Hammer Out a Royalty Free Video Codec

#34
post #5

Seems to me the success will depend on the quality and whether chip manufacturers will embrace this for hardware encoding/decoding. Right now looks to me like h265 is the winning horse

Thor is part of the NetVC effort, tentatively a royalty-free successor to HEVC.

Re: Thor – A Project to Hammer Out a Royalty Free Video Codec

#35

See also the massively popular, and critical-to-rails Gem https://github.com/erikhuda/thor - naming is hard.

Naming may or may not be hard. But the fact that two projects in hugely different contexts happened to pick the same name does not bear that out, nor does anyone confuse that ruby gem with an even more massively popular Avengers member.

Perhaps if you stopped worrying about name collisions with any existing project ever, you might find naming things a little easier.

Re: Thor – A Project to Hammer Out a Royalty Free Video Codec

#36
post #4

"We also hired patent lawyers and consultants familiar with this technology area. We created a new codec development process which would allow us to work through the long list of patents in this space, and continually evolve our codec to work around or avoid those patents. Our efforts are far from complete, but we felt it was time to open this up to the world." This burden is becoming far too great, when this is the…

Well put. It's crazy that they're pumping that much money paying lawyers in order to avoid using work that someone else has already done. They're forced to waste money and engineering talent in order to re-invent a technology due to our fucked up IP legal landscape.

Not just re-invent, since if you happen to invent something by yourself the same way as it happens to have been patented then you're still in trouble.

Re: Thor – A Project to Hammer Out a Royalty Free Video Codec

#38

No wonder Big Media hates tech, they are trying to take all their money away. I think this is a great effort, and if you'll recall Google went and attempted to do the same thing with VP8, but found that people could file patents faster than they could release code[1]. I would certainly support a 'restraint of trade' argument, and a novelty argument which implies (although I know its impossible to currently litigate t…

Why attack novelty instead of non-obviousness? An expert can attest to obviousness, but not necessarily novelty (you shouldn't need an expert for that: simply produce the prior version).

Re: Thor – A Project to Hammer Out a Royalty Free Video Codec

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly the risk is better with a royalty-free video codec, though. In the case of Daala, the goal is to be sufficiently different to avoid these broad patents, too. Also, any companies contributing to the NETVC standard are required to declare IPR, which is not the case for MPEG standards.

> Certainly the risk is better with a royalty-free video codec, though. I'm not sure what this means. A royalty-free video codec basically has a bullseye painted on it from the perspective of existing rightsholders. The only reason such entities might exercise restraint is because the cost/benefit analysis doesn't support litigation. Even if they don't think a competitor codec is a threat at the outset, there's nothi…

Er, sorry, you're right, that was a bad assertion. The submarine patent risk is pretty much the same in both cases - RF does not make it better. Early declarations to discourage use are more likely towards RF codecs, but are also easier to deal with.

I think Daala's development process (and IPR disclosure policies at the IETF) reduce the risk substantially. However, this is not automatically true of any RF codec.

Re: Thor – A Project to Hammer Out a Royalty Free Video Codec

#40

"We also hired patent lawyers and consultants familiar with this technology area. We created a new codec development process which would allow us to work through the long list of patents in this space, and continually evolve our codec to work around or avoid those patents. Our efforts are far from complete, but we felt it was time to open this up to the world." This burden is becoming far too great, when this is the…

Amen. As Thomas Jefferson (correctly) described patents, they're a part of positive law, not natural law. In other words, their only justification is pragmatic, not moral. You can't "own" an idea the way that you can own a couch or a car. We allow for (temporary) patent protection because it's supposed to encourage innovation and help our economy. If it doesn't - and it's clearly reached the point where it hinders ra…

To be clear, because some forget this part of patent law, the encouragement towards innovation was to encourage people to share and build on a communal set of ideas. The temporary monopoly on ideas was the carrot to get people to register their ideas in a central location (patent office) rather than lock ideas behind closed doors and secrecy.

Too many people think the carrot of the temporary monopoly was the point of the patent office.

In other words, we know that the community of ideas gets better with more sharing and building off of other people's ideas. As a society we decided to make laws to encourage this sharing. As a result, technological progress was immense.

Sadly, the current situation seems to strongly suggest that we may need to find better ways to encourage sharing (Open Source has been great for much of software).

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