Assange, the law of limitation, and the next eight days • Hacker News Board

Re: Assange, the law of limitation, and the next eight days

#31

Post by joesmo » Tue, Aug 11, 2015, 2:13 PM UTC

Although this particular case is highly political and likely fabricated, the tragedy of such a law of limitation applying to rape is sickening. That's not just in Sweden, but many other jurisdictions, including most of the US states. The real question here isn't about Assange--that's an uninteresting political aside.

The real question is why do states have a statute of limitations on a crime that's sometimes a lot worse than murder and in the best cases, only slightly less bad? Yes, a statute of limitations is incredibly useful for petty crimes like stealing and other small things like that. We're talking here about rape and sexual assault though. As far as I can see, this is still a reflection on how poorly our societies treat women, even in the west. Perhaps the fact that the men in charge don't want to acknowledge the horror of rape? Women, however, are not the only ones getting raped. I truly cannot fathom the reason for this horrific limitation on justice, and I think if men being raped was more of a problem (outside prisons and jails where the authorities generally refuse to accept it happens) we would have no such limitations on rape or sexual assault.

Re: Assange, the law of limitation, and the next eight days

#32

Post by danso » Tue, Aug 11, 2015, 2:14 PM UTC

joesmo wrote: post #31

Although this particular case is highly political and likely fabricated, the tragedy of such a law of limitation applying to rape is sickening. That's not just in Sweden, but many other jurisdictions, including most of the US states. The real question here isn't about Assange--that's an uninteresting political aside. The real question is why do states have a statute of limitations on a crime that's sometimes a lot wo…

> Although this particular case is highly political and likely fabricated...

Huh?

Re: Assange, the law of limitation, and the next eight days

#33

Post by Bohahahaha » Tue, Aug 11, 2015, 2:16 PM UTC

panglott wrote: post #20

deanCommie wrote: post #3

Regardless of what you think of Assange (personal take: flawed personality but ultimately heroic)... Regardless of what you think of the charges against him (personal take: No way to know for sure, but gut feel is he made poor choices and wound up in the grey area of undesired sexual experiences that our society is currently struggling with how to properly define. In our natural humane desire to protect potential vic…

What's fucked up? Sweden's justice system seems to be far superior to the US's—both in taking very seriously charges of sexual assault that would probably be ignored in the US, and in taking very seriously the rights of the accused. Assange has squandered his chance to clear his name, and sure seems to be at the least a creepy dude.

A 'comparison' to the US can't prove that Swedens system is not fu but only that the US might be even more so.

Re: Assange, the law of limitation, and the next eight days

#34

Post by joesmo » Tue, Aug 11, 2015, 2:16 PM UTC

danso wrote: post #32

joesmo wrote: post #31

Although this particular case is highly political and likely fabricated, the tragedy of such a law of limitation applying to rape is sickening. That's not just in Sweden, but many other jurisdictions, including most of the US states. The real question here isn't about Assange--that's an uninteresting political aside. The real question is why do states have a statute of limitations on a crime that's sometimes a lot wo…

> Although this particular case is highly political and likely fabricated... Huh?

I think the allegations are likely fabricated to get Assange to Sweden so he can be extradited to the US.

Re: Assange, the law of limitation, and the next eight days

#35

Post by kiiski » Tue, Aug 11, 2015, 2:19 PM UTC

gadders wrote: post #26

Zenst wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed and very much a case of using the letter of the law to abuse the spirit of the law and in this case, avoid it. He has argued all along that if he left he would be whisked away for nefarious trials by America and if that was the case then this 5 year date of his hiding will make no difference. Unless he just wanted to avoid the trial for whatever reason. Still for a trial you need a victim and in this case, tha…

Even if we leave aside the specifics of the Assange case, I still find it astonishing as a general principle.

Is five years evading law enforcement really that much better than ~1 year in prison? (One year based on the fact that the five year limit only applies if the maximum penalty is at most 2 years[1], and presumably a first timer would not spend the whole 2 years in prison (and the actual sentence in this case might be below 2 years anyway))

The general principle, as far as I know, is based on the idea that the need for punishment is lessened by time.

[1] https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preskription#Preskriptionstide...

Re: Assange, the law of limitation, and the next eight days

#36

Post by Bohahahaha » Tue, Aug 11, 2015, 2:20 PM UTC

PJDK wrote: post #8

agd wrote: post #5

Pretty outrageous that the prosecutor hasn't questioned him in London by now. This has been a huge police cost and is a great disservice to the alleged victims who would surely want the case to progress quickly. I haven't seen any plausible reason why the prosecutor couldn't question him in London, especially given the exceptional circumstances of the case. edit: Yes, I have seen the reasons put forward by the SPA me…

This is covered in the article. Sweden has now (as of March) said they would be willing to interview in London. http://www.aklagare.se/In-English/Media/News-in-English1/The... http://www.thelocal.se/20150618/swedish-prosecutor-cancels-a...

What everyone with that point of view means is this: the prosecutor has had 5 years to fix a potential complex setup but waited for the very last minute.

Re: Assange, the law of limitation, and the next eight days

#37

Post by Bohahahaha » Tue, Aug 11, 2015, 2:21 PM UTC

If I went to my professor at university complaining that I waited 5 years and then could not solve the challenges b/c of not enough time left, he would just laugh at my assumption that I'm not responsible for the fu

Re: Assange, the law of limitation, and the next eight days

#38

Post by another-one-off » Tue, Aug 11, 2015, 2:23 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #23

gadders wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worth reposting the link from the article which explains what Assange actually did (or was alleged to have done): http://jackofkent.com/2012/09/the-detail-of-the-accusations-...

Worth quoting too: > As they drank tea, he started to fondle her leg which she welcomed. Everything happened fast. Mr Assange ripped off her clothes and at the same time broke her necklace. She tried to put her clothes on again, but Mr Assange had immediately removed them again. She had thought that she did not really want to continue, but it was too late to tell Mr Assange to stop as she had consented so far. Accord…

The first 3 dot points read more like a case of a broken condom than exceeding the scope of consent. A lot of the evidence is what she thinks he was thinking - this is not high quality evidence. He seems to have done everything she asked him to do.

The last dot point is from the other set of charges (SW rather than AA). That one is a fairly clear case of straight up exceeding the scope of consent. If it happened like that, it is bad behavior. He could reasonably be unwise rather than malicious. A formal apology and a moderate fine for any medical expenses seems appropriate to my moral judgment, although the courts would know what is appropriate legally.

At any rate, the two cases here are rather minor compared to the suspicion that the US government is setting him up with a smear campaign. The forces against him include a government which apparently has a secret court and a spy network that was being run by the executive without the apparent knowledge of the American congress. These charges may not exist in a vacuum. Lots of people are not perfect, the issue is that he deserves some freedom from persecution for his political actions. Someone obviously agrees with me here that these charges were politically motivated, because the Ecuadorians are granting him asylum.

Re: Assange, the law of limitation, and the next eight days

#39

Post by Bohahahaha » Tue, Aug 11, 2015, 2:23 PM UTC

Most people here think this article is about Assange being guilty or not. It's not.

Re: Assange, the law of limitation, and the next eight days

#40

Post by toyg » Tue, Aug 11, 2015, 2:26 PM UTC

deanCommie wrote: post #4

belorn wrote: post #2

This is now a prime example in what happens when politics gets involved with justice. The police interviewed everyone involved, including Assange. The district chief prosecutor looked at it and concluded to drop it. Almost a month later, even through there had been no new information available, the political assigned director of Public Prosecution decided to reopen the case and immediately issues a international arre…

I completely agree with your point in the specific case, but completely disagree in general. Justice IS political. Justices either run for office as political public figures or are appointed by political public figures. The justice system is an attempt to apply a subset of morality for the betterment of society, which is ultimately a subjective political exercise.

> Justices either run for office as political public figures or are appointed by political public figures

Mon dieu, Baron de Montesquieu must be spinning in his grave! :)

One of the key principles of modern government is (or rather, should be) total independence of the judicial system from political pressure. In practice this is hard to achieve. In the US it turned into a "parallel democracy" with elected judges, who might not answer to regular politicians but are politicians themselves; in Europe it's usually a fundamentally-administrative career path, however in various countries it's more or less influenced by political winds (after all, an efficient Government or Parliament will want someone to actually enforce laws that get passed). Still, there is a clear ideal of purity and independence that original constituents were striving for (usually as a reaction to the arbitrary power of kings and popes), and our failings in reaching it now does not mean we will never reach it.

On your more general point, rather than "justice" I'd rather refer to "law enforcement". Yes, law enforcement is political: it enforces laws written by ruling interests to perpetuate such interests (be those moral, economic, of class or whatever). The degree and intensity of enforcement for any given rule is eminently political. However, "justice" itself is not necessarily the same thing.

At the end of the day, man is not perfect; a system will always be required to address this problem and its consequences. The existence of such a system is not just political but essential to society itself. Pre-political forms of society, where the tribe leader ruled uncontested by virtue of pure physical strength, likely still involved the administration of justice to a certain degree. In a way, the emergence of political structures themselves is an answer to the problem of obtaining justice (who defines what is just? How does he define it? How does he enforce it? and so on).