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Miyazaki's Beautiful Anti-War Dreams

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Re: Miyazaki's Beautiful Anti-War Dreams

#91

Post by Retric »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #51
krapp wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you believe that 'good' and 'evil' are fundamental and inseparable aspects of humanity, meaning evil can never truly cease because it's part of what we're made of, then yes, you might believe that balance is the healthier option. Belief in either extreme can lead you to a dehumanizing view of people, and a lot of evil has been done in the world in the name of ridding it of a greater evil, for the sake of an unques…

> If you believe that 'good' and 'evil' are fundamental and inseparable aspects of humanity, meaning evil can never truly cease because it's part of what we're made of A world of "no"; that's a kind of "balance" I want no part of.

Consider things more abstractly, greed is generally thought of as an evil. Bur trying to distroy it is counter productive, but wuty care it can be useful. The drug war is a great example of taking an ideology past the point of usefulness.

Re: Miyazaki's Beautiful Anti-War Dreams

#92

Post by thisrod »

pekk wrote: post #84
thisrod wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's not forget the context in which poor and unsophisticated people decided that was a good idea, and the names of the international aggressors whose crimes encompass the evil of the whole conflict: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Freedom_Deal Do you think that President Kennedy was an evil man?

The bombing of Cambodia cannot possibly justify anything Pol Pot did to his own population.

I didn't suggest that it did.

However, in the context of moral outlooks that people form in that sort of environment, Pol Pot's values are quite normal. Many German soldiers formed similar views during the First World War; they were very well informed compared to the Cambodians, and in a position to know better.

Re: Miyazaki's Beautiful Anti-War Dreams

#93

Post by Aeolun »

pekk wrote: post #82
Natsu wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the idea is that human notions of 'evil' are based on imperfect knowledge, at best. Therefore, quite often one person's 'evil' is another's 'justice' and letting people rampage in pursuit of it does not make for a peaceful society. Rather, people have to be able to work together in spite of their differing ideals, instead of hoping to be able to eliminate or marginalize everyone who might not believe the sa…

On the other hand, if what other people believe is outlined in Mein Kampf, the attitude that you should work together with those people in spite of your differing ideals is quite wrong. We know this because of what happened in the Holocaust. Today, we have the luxury to judge this tree by its fruits. Even if someone else believes that the Holocaust was justice, there has to be some line of appeasement we won't cross,…

This is only true if you are the only one to follow that rule. Someone whose belief is outlined in Mein Kampf, but nonetheless follows the same rule, will seek other means than the historical of resolving his differences.

Re: Miyazaki's Beautiful Anti-War Dreams

#94

Post by tsotha »

aeturnum wrote: post #20
happyscrappy wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Japanese were in many ways more brutal and ruthless than the Nazis but have done a great job whitewashing their despicable past. Wiped away with mushroom clouds that they invited.

The Japanese civilians who are depicted in Fireflies bear no more responsibility for the actions of unit 731 or the rape of nanking than you do for LeMay's fire bombing of Japanese cities. If you can do nothing else, reject the lumping-together of a people into a collective 'they.' No matter what punishment Japanese war criminals deserve, we must also strive to protect civilians on all sides.

I disagree. In post 19th century war is there are no civilians. All excess labor capacity goes to the war effort.

And wars are started by civilians, for the most part. Why should young men be the ones to feel all the pain?

Re: Miyazaki's Beautiful Anti-War Dreams

#95

Post by losvedir »

ekianjo wrote: post #73

This is a terrible article. > LeMay also oversaw and championed the enforcement of the total blockade of Japan by filling the waters around its port cities with aerial-dropped mines, which, for example, caused shipping through Kobe to plummet by 85%. This campaign was dubbed, with a refreshing lack of hypocrisy, “Operation Starvation.” Thus, the starvation of little Setsuko/Keiko was not “collateral damage,” but a pr…

> And bombing the Soviets first when the US had a clear advantage (in the early 50s basically) would not have resulted in the whole world being destroyed, most likely only the Soviet Union would have paid a hefty price while the losses in Europe/US would have been less.

And this is a better outcome than what _actually_ happened how...?

Re: Miyazaki's Beautiful Anti-War Dreams

#96

Post by ekianjo »

losvedir wrote: post #95
ekianjo wrote: post #73

This is a terrible article. > LeMay also oversaw and championed the enforcement of the total blockade of Japan by filling the waters around its port cities with aerial-dropped mines, which, for example, caused shipping through Kobe to plummet by 85%. This campaign was dubbed, with a refreshing lack of hypocrisy, “Operation Starvation.” Thus, the starvation of little Setsuko/Keiko was not “collateral damage,” but a pr…

> And bombing the Soviets first when the US had a clear advantage (in the early 50s basically) would not have resulted in the whole world being destroyed, most likely only the Soviet Union would have paid a hefty price while the losses in Europe/US would have been less. And this is a better outcome than what _actually_ happened how...?

Not saying this is better or worse. Just explaining the way he was thinking - and noting that we were on the brink of nuclear war in two times in the 60s and the 80s, with actual total annihilation being very close - if it had happened you would not be there to pass that judgment in the first place, and LeMay may have been proven right.

Most observers agree that it was "mere luck" that we did not annihilate each other at those precise time points.

Re: Miyazaki's Beautiful Anti-War Dreams

#97

Post by olavk »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #29
shadowmoses wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In his own words, “You must see with eyes unclouded by hate. See the good in that which is evil, and the evil in that which is good. Pledge yourself to neither side, but vow instead to preserve the balance that exists between the two.”

> You must see with eyes unclouded by hate. See the good in that which is evil, and the evil in that which is good. Pledge yourself to neither side, but vow instead to preserve the balance that exists between the two. As a statement, it sounds poetic at first, and the first two sentences are absolutely perfect; however, there's something very wrong about the notion of "preserving the balance", and I've seen that noti…

The quote itself is somewhat vauge, but I think the movies exemplify more clearly the viewpoint.

Take The Lord Of the Rings - the good and the evil is very clearly defined. Sauron and the Orcs are objectively evil, and you can kill as many orcs as you want without feeling any remorse. Sarumans industrialization is pure evil. Aragorn is the rightfully ruler purely by virtue of being a "good guy" and having the right ancestors.

Now compare to Princess Mononoke. Obviously the corruption of the nature is an evil thing, but Eboshi is not "evil", she saves the outcasts of society, lepers and prostitutes and gives them life and dignity, but as part of her plan she upsets the balance of nature. This is much more complex conflict as in Tolkien, and the solution is not as easy, since you cannot just kill all the bad guys.

Re: Miyazaki's Beautiful Anti-War Dreams

#98

Post by 3pt14159 »

scott_karana wrote: post #5
delinka wrote: post #3

I'm disappointed that what could have been a review of an excellent film contained so much anti-"US Warmongering." War is terrible. Sanctions have negative effects. How would this author propose convincing leaders who commit human rights violations to stop those violations? Asking nicely? "Thus, the starvation of little Setsuko/Keiko was not 'collateral damage,' but a premeditated murder. [...] Of course elite war-br…

Is the knowing, willful firebombing of solely civilian targets ever justifiable, regardless of who brings the fire against whom? From TFA: “Is it the enemy’s or one of ours?” “What difference does it make? Stupid murderers.”

I'm extremely pro-peace, but in total war elimination of civilians is necessary to reduce production capacity.

Re: Miyazaki's Beautiful Anti-War Dreams

#99

Post by throwaway12309 »

hajile wrote: post #24
delinka wrote: post #3

I'm disappointed that what could have been a review of an excellent film contained so much anti-"US Warmongering." War is terrible. Sanctions have negative effects. How would this author propose convincing leaders who commit human rights violations to stop those violations? Asking nicely? "Thus, the starvation of little Setsuko/Keiko was not 'collateral damage,' but a premeditated murder. [...] Of course elite war-br…

There is much more to the story. The history of the United States is full of wilful violence against others. Everything from theft of the south-west from Mexico (a war the US instigated and started) because "God has given us a 'manifest destiny'" to the barbaric atrocities we unleashed during the Spanish-American and later Philippine-American wars (the US has tried very hard to whitewash the concentration camps, rape…

FUCKING SPOILER ALERT next time

Re: Miyazaki's Beautiful Anti-War Dreams

#100

Post by Natsu »

pekk wrote: post #82
Natsu wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the idea is that human notions of 'evil' are based on imperfect knowledge, at best. Therefore, quite often one person's 'evil' is another's 'justice' and letting people rampage in pursuit of it does not make for a peaceful society. Rather, people have to be able to work together in spite of their differing ideals, instead of hoping to be able to eliminate or marginalize everyone who might not believe the sa…

On the other hand, if what other people believe is outlined in Mein Kampf, the attitude that you should work together with those people in spite of your differing ideals is quite wrong. We know this because of what happened in the Holocaust. Today, we have the luxury to judge this tree by its fruits. Even if someone else believes that the Holocaust was justice, there has to be some line of appeasement we won't cross,…

The Nazis would be a good example of a group that rampaged in pursuit of their ideal of "justice"--they believed that a group of rich people (Jews) were the source of all misery, however removed from reality that might be--then rampaged, not just in a figurative sense, but also a very literal one (e.g. kristallnacht).

I quite explicitly said that this was both an undesirable thing and something to put a stop to.

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