The Hamburger Menu Doesn't Work • Hacker News Board

Re: The Hamburger Menu Doesn't Work

#101

Post by juliangregorian » Mon, Aug 10, 2015, 9:14 PM UTC

Numberwang wrote: post #95

shampine wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I keep reading these articles about how awful hamburgers are but so far not a single one addresses menus that have more than 3-5 items. I manage sites that we have kicked around ideas for how to deal with the menu better, but the size of what is in that menu makes all the proposed ideas I've seen not feasible. So I'm right there with you that it is unfortunate, I wish these articles had more in way of solutions than…

For bigger menus I like how it is implemented here under the 'Mer' section: http://www.idg.se/

Called a "mega menu" FYI.

Re: The Hamburger Menu Doesn't Work

#102

Post by joeyspn » Mon, Aug 10, 2015, 9:15 PM UTC

dperfect wrote: post #36

Before hamburger menus became popular, weren't people complaining about the exact opposite problem? That is, if you break out the menu items into more prominent interface elements (e.g., tab bar items), then you're at risk of cluttering your visual design with less-common functions. As in all things design, I suppose a balance needs to be found, but I personally don't find anything wrong with a hamburger menu per se.…

> As in all things design, I suppose a balance needs to be found, but I personally don't find anything wrong with a hamburger menu per se.

It's not about balance, cluttering or abuses, it's all about engagement. Ultimately design decisions must be data-driven. If using other nav patterns you increase user engagement (and consequently revenue for the company) the hamburger should be replaced. So, A/B test it, and you will learn which is the correct choice: hamburger, tabs, segmented control, etc

Re: The Hamburger Menu Doesn't Work

#103

Post by abalone » Mon, Aug 10, 2015, 9:15 PM UTC

[deleted] wrote: post #98

abalone wrote: post #86

It's very interesting that Apple just adopted a hamburger menu for their apple.com redesign (mobile version). They even told everyone not to use hamburger menus at last year's WWDC! [1] [1] WWDC 2014 Session 211 Designing Intuitive User Experiences @ 32:00, available here: https://developer.apple.com/videos/wwdc/2014/ Addendum: It's a responsive design so you can see this even on a desktop browser just by shrinking t…

[deleted]

I didn't say there was a problem with the design, just that it's inconsistent with their own advice.

In that session the Apple UX evangelist absolutely rips hamburger menus to shreds calling them "tedious" and "terrible" at "telling you where you are [and] where else you can go". Quite a surprise to see it show up on apple.com, then.

Re: The Hamburger Menu Doesn't Work

#104

Post by WorldMaker » Mon, Aug 10, 2015, 9:29 PM UTC

snuxoll wrote: post #62

WorldMaker wrote: post #42

One of the things that I felt Windows Phone 7 and 8/8.1 in their design language did well was encouraging designs that were better than the hamburger (pivots and sprawling "hubs" that encourage you to explore in two dimensions; app-bars with ellipses). It's interesting to see Hamburger menus bleeding back into the design language with Windows 10. It seems a strange, sad concession to meeting Android/iOS designs and e…

As someone who has been using Windows Phone devices since WP7 was launched the hamburger button making an appearance makes me just shake my head in disgust. To an extent Microsoft has been making reasonable use of it, in Outlook it's particularly nice since I no longer need to expand the app bar to get to my folder list - but I fear the signaling it may be giving 3rd party designers, that they can get away with myste…

I'm right there with you. My hopes are that enough developers and designers are paying attention to why and what the hamburger menus are doing in Outlook and Xbox and some of the other Microsoft-built Windows 10 applications rather than just duplicating whatever they've been doing on iOS/Android. I've got a feeling that maybe Microsoft themselves hope that their smarter use of hamburgers might be contagious in the other direction (just as so much of Material UI copied some of the flatter styles of WP7/8) and iOS/Android developers might start using the Windows app bar-style of hamburgers. I'm worried, of course, that designers/developers won't be paying attention and will assume the consistency in iconography applies a consistency in functionality. That said, I also see Microsoft's point that the global consistency in iconography may be more important than consistent functionality in a world where users are using applications on multiple platforms (ie, so many people are using some admixture of Windows, Mac OS X, iOS, and Android these days).

Re: The Hamburger Menu Doesn't Work

#105

Post by michaelpinto » Mon, Aug 10, 2015, 9:31 PM UTC

I think the real question should be: Are users using the hamburger menu and do they know what it means?

Also this may not apply to apps, but on the web the hamburger is an indirect result of responsive design techniques where a navigation menu has to compress due to limiteds screen real estate in mobile.

But the funny thing is that as a designer I hate the hamburger because it does feel like a hack. Yet I can see the popularity is due to trying to have something work on both mobile and desktop.

In fact if you look at mobile only apps they tend to avoid the hamburger trap (example: Instagram) but if you look at any app with a desktop legacy (example: Facebook) you almost have to need it (unless you are willing to cut features or make a suite of apps).

Re: The Hamburger Menu Doesn't Work

#106

Post by aero142 » Mon, Aug 10, 2015, 9:33 PM UTC

davnicwil wrote: post #63

aero142 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or in a less jaded view, they decided to try a very low cost fix before pulling the trigger on a very expensive site navigation redesign. Or, even better, this showed a partial improvement while they worked on the navigation redesign since "turn it yellow" takes 2 seconds and redesign the navigation takes much longer.

I like how this reads as jaded, was actually just an attempt at a bit of humour! Of course I agree with everything you said, that's probably what it actually was. I've still not learned, probably never will, that tone rarely comes across in text :-)

Well, I had no doubt that I was interpreting it correctly, so I'll mark it down on my personal scorecard as well:)

Re: The Hamburger Menu Doesn't Work

#107

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Aug 10, 2015, 9:36 PM UTC

abalone wrote: post #103

[deleted] wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

I didn't say there was a problem with the design, just that it's inconsistent with their own advice. In that session the Apple UX evangelist absolutely rips hamburger menus to shreds calling them "tedious" and "terrible" at "telling you where you are [and] where else you can go". Quite a surprise to see it show up on apple.com, then.

[deleted]

Re: The Hamburger Menu Doesn't Work

#108

Post by makecheck » Mon, Aug 10, 2015, 9:47 PM UTC

Long before these mobile menus appeared, an icon with a series of lines always meant "drag here" (e.g. in a desktop app, inside a resizable divider or a size box).

My first impression of these was therefore to try to grab them and pull, as if to slide the bars that they appear on. Unfortunately, even now, most implementations of "hamburger menus" do the worst possible thing when you try to slide them: nothing at all.

And then there's the weirdness of seeing them on the desktop where there is plenty of space. It's the same frustration I feel whenever I see a desktop app force content into a tiny, non-resizable box with scroll bars on a 1920x1200 screen! If I have the space, I really, really want to use it. Any design that refuses to expand to available space is simply wrong.

Re: The Hamburger Menu Doesn't Work

#109

Post by alejohausner » Mon, Aug 10, 2015, 9:48 PM UTC

ploxiln wrote: post #83

bhauer wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> fwiw, I've encountered this quite a bit when helping users switch from Internet Explorer to Firefox or Chrome -- both of which use the stupid hamburger menu -- an users hate it and "being able to find things" is probably the number one reported reason that they go back to Internet Explorer. Even as a routine Firefox user, I never use the "hamburger menu." Instead, to reach functions not visible on my toolbar, I jus…

It's also funny that on the desktop OS designed by Apple, that paragon of modern and superficially minimal design, the menu is always visible (in the menu bar, just for the focused application). Other desktops trying to be as "easy and beautiful" as OS X are doing more to hide the classic menu. (not an apple fanboy, I promise, I've spent more time with linux overall)

Apple chose to always have an active menu at the top of the screen because of Fitts' law, which roughly says that bigger buttons can be clicked on more quickly than small ones (see wikipedia for a more precise mathematical description). Duh.

With the menu at the top, the user can slam the mouse pointer to the top edge, and simply focus on moving the pointer left of right. This is perceptually equivalent to having the screen divided into several tall stripes, one for each menu item. The menu items thus act like buttons with very large screen area.

On a small mobile device, this trick is used too: most of the UI buttons are on the edges of the display.

Compare this experience with trying to hit a tab or button on the top edge of your application's window (on a desktop computer). The top edge is rather narrow, and the targets sitting on that edge have small area. It takes much more effort to hit them, than if they were planted at the top of the screen.

From what I've read, Apple chose this design way back in the stone age era (early 1980s), after actually doing user testing!

New isn't always better.

Re: The Hamburger Menu Doesn't Work

#110

Post by vacri » Mon, Aug 10, 2015, 9:48 PM UTC

Why do designers gravitate to extremes in these fads? Skeuomorphic! Flat design! Everything in the hamburger menu! Nothing in the hamburger menu!

What's wrong with moderation? Day-to-day navigation elements shouldn't be in a hamburger menu (also, an extra 'click' for common tasks is bad), but there are plenty of non-everyday things that can go in there.