Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How yuppies hacked the hacker ethos

aeon.co

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

141–150 of 221 posts

Re: How yuppies hacked the hacker ethos

#141

Post by roneesh »

Devthrowaway80 wrote: post #103
roneesh wrote: post #61

Look, you can construct whatever narrative you want about power, people and the ebb and flow of capital, but it's pointless. People like nice things. There I said it. Most people like nice cedar lined floors, expensive drinks and well cut clothes. And when you have those things, it's marvelous how quickly your disdain for the 'institution' evaporates. Most of us aren't really hackers in that nostalgic sense. We're no…

I read this comment while wearing an Aphex Twin shirt in the office. :(

For your honesty, I would upvote this a hundred times if I could.

Re: How yuppies hacked the hacker ethos

#142

Post by sanderjd »

daveloyall wrote: post #123
sanderjd wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would certainly be more charitable to think of "them" as what they really are: people who, just like you, are doing their best to figure out a path for themselves through a mystifying world. At least, I know that's what I am doing, while also being quite sure you think I'm a hipster web 2.0 wank poser.

I appreciate this pushback against my use of "them". I appreciate your astute description of what it is like to be a person. ...Forgive me, if you want, when I contradict myself! I think there's some value in cliques. I was reminded of this recently when some buddies and I started an every-other-Sunday RPG group. (Heroes Unlimited, FWIW.) The conversations that come up in that group are really great. The common groun…

I'm not surprised that your response is so charitable – I wouldn't have bothered responding to you to start with if I thought you seemed like you're just a jerk out to score points against "the other" – but thanks anyway.

What I dislike is not so much the existence of cliques, I agree with you that they have an important place, and I certainly have, and in the past have always had, various "circles" that I enjoy being with far more than other people. What gets under my skin is the way in which cliques think and speak of people on the outside. For instance (to keep picking on you), people who are interested in web applications with lots of user-focused behavior more than other, supposedly "more pure", kinds of applications, whether it's because that's where the jobs are or because that's where the users are or just because they think it's cool, become "hipsters", "wanks", and "posers". The problem isn't with having specific interests and a preference to converse with people who share them, the problem is with the rampant implicit or explicit judgment of people who don't. Maybe it's just an effort to categorize, in order to have an easy shorthand for thinking about what kinds of people you prefer to converse with, but why does this sort of categorization almost always seem to rely on such pejorative language?

In any case, I agree with you that mefi is a great community, but I definitely haven't found any place with as good a variety of technical submissions and discussions as HN, even if it is overrun with bourgeois gentrifiers like myself.

Re: How yuppies hacked the hacker ethos

#143

Post by thwest »

WaxProlix wrote: post #129
_delirium wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've more commonly found "cultural Marxism" used regarding social issues. People who believe in the theory allege that Marxism has expanded into the cultural realm (rather than focusing on economics and class), as part of a long strategy to undermine western society. For example: immigration is alleged to be a cultural-Marxist strategy to undermine the nation-state, abortion & gay marriage are cultural-Marxist strate…

How is class not a part of culture?

This is exactly how we keep intentionally misunderstanding Das Kapital on internet forums.

Class is not a minor outcome of a social moment. It is not a mere symbol that can be quickly turned on or off by a culture, the way a culture might shift from enjoying boxing to preferring mixed martial arts.

Class has arisen as an essential structure in the reproduction of society since the dissolution of European fuedalism. The same business logic that produces all our material wants, from coats to bushels, comes hand in hand with the logic that every business must give the profit (surplus labor) back to capital. Culture is a material basis, but class is the overdetermining superstructure.

Shifting from a class based society to a classless one would require a fundamental shift in the economic relations where workers would own the means of production. This shift would tear apart the material basis of our culture. MTV/Viacom, MSNBC/Fox/CNN, RCA/TicketMaster/C3, WaPo/NYT/WSJ, TWTR/Facebook/Google: all of these cultural production centers would shatter into cultural microcosms if the workers at these firms weren't bound to profit maximization.

On the other hand, it is trivial to manufacture new cultures without a whiff of change to class.

Re: How yuppies hacked the hacker ethos

#144

Post by veddox »

bcg1 wrote: post #124

This article is bound to ruffle some feathers around here. The writing is spot on but will cause some cognitive dissonance for some as the words ring true but conflict with the structures they have set up in their minds and in their lives. I think that the commercialization can be good though... the culture gets to live on and propagate when there is a way for hackers to make money doing what they love. Any successfu…

> you need keepers-of-the-faith like the author

Sorry, but this author is no "keeper of the faith". He's a finance journalist, for goodness sake! See my comment above for more details.

Re: How yuppies hacked the hacker ethos

#145

Post by roneesh »

busterarm wrote: post #68
roneesh wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, most won't really become devs, but they'll gain some newfound technical literacy and some respect for what devs do full-time. It's important in these situations to look outside of the context and just see what's actually happening: people are learning. And that has more positives than negatives I'm sure.

While I see some positives there, I think that's a really expensive way to learn. I see a lot that just don't make it. $10-18k+ that you can't write off on your taxes. Full disclosure: I attended such a place myself as I saw it as the best way to shift my career quickly (support/ops). I've been writing code since I was 6 years old.

I'll be honest, I disagree here. I know on the onset 10-18K is a lot. In fact I warn people before they do a bootcamp: "Do you want to spend what would fund a trip around the world?"

But over a life time, if they work hard after and keep coding after, they can 10 fold reap what they sow. If they get a tech job, it might be a 10-20k a year increase from whatever other field they're in, more if they were a barista or something. Even if it doesn't lead to coding, but other jobs at a startup like tech support, the income boost might be substantial. Also the time is so condensed, they get a lot of learning out of those 11-15 weeks. Also, unlike grad school, there's no loss of income for 2 years. Worst comes to worst, I'd imagine in many cases their old employers are likely to bring them back.

Re: How yuppies hacked the hacker ethos

#146

Post by zecho »

andyl wrote: post #73
Gigamouse wrote: post #13

For those who think this article is too long, here is summary: This gist of the article is that the hacker impulse or ‘hacker ethic’ is a natural human response to large alienating infrastructures that allow little agency on the part of individuals. Hackers take different forms, but are identified by 1) a tendency towards creative rebellion that seeks to increase the agency of underdogs in the face of systems that ar…

That's a summary? tldr My summary: the article is a cultural-marxist parable. The victim is the hacker. The oppressor is the yuppie. In olden days the hacker lived in a sort of eden, but now the oppressor has trapped the hacker in webs of capitalist bondage.

The problem with TLDR summaries is that they're always overly blunt and often wrong and they tend to serve as dog whistles for people who are overly blunt and often wrong themselves.

Re: How yuppies hacked the hacker ethos

#147

Post by zo1 »

pharrington wrote: post #127
danielweber wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really worry about these people trying to free me from a high income career and telling me it's for my own good.

What I want is for a common person to not need to pursue a high income career in order to support themselves and their loved ones, persue their hobbies/education/passions, and stay culturally engaged. The cultural necessity of careerism limits the general options available and accelerates the course of the dominant culture, which as we know, primarily consolidates wealth and attacks sub-scale forms of ownership. We n…

That's not "freedom" you're describing.

You're wanting "freedom to pursue "hobbies" and free "perks" without having to work for it" for yourself, at the expense of the general society. And by expense of general society, what that really means is that someone with the means to production/capital/etc has to part ways with some of his (labor, gasp he's no longer free), in order to fund your "free" lifestyle.

Re: How yuppies hacked the hacker ethos

#148

Post by gaius »

nostrademons wrote: post #126
gaius wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

members of a subculture gain a perceived glamour, which incentivizes outsiders to come in for superficial reasons It has a real cost to the original members, in terms of their loss of immediate credibility. You see a guy with sailor tattoos. Did he serve in the Fleet, does that speak to his work ethic and skill with a chart or a diesel engine? Or does he work in advertising and drink soy lattes? You see a girl with t…

The genuine people don't care what other people think of them and don't feel a need to "prove" anything. That's what makes them genuine.

I don't think that's actually true; otherwise how would they be a part of a community with other like-minded people? How would they authenticate themselves to one another? Hell's Angels are another good example.

Re: How yuppies hacked the hacker ethos

#149

Post by merpnderp »

zaphar wrote: post #20
baseballmerpeak wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go home, yuppies. The last few paragraphs bring it home: hacking is being subverted as a tool of the establishment and no longer, in common use, means working against the establishment.

Here's the thing. Hacking in the sense of the word he wants it used didn't go away or get subverted. It just lost a label. Words in the english language change all the time. Hacking in the sense of gaining a deep understanding of things by tinkering is alive and well and isn't going anywhere. So some one co-opted our label. So What? We can get a new label. It doesn't mean we somehow vanished or are dying out. We're s…

I think the new label he's looking for is "Maker". People who go to Maker/Hacker spaces or consider themselves part of the Maker movement are exactly what hackers used to be.

Re: How yuppies hacked the hacker ethos

#150

Post by daveloyall »

sanderjd wrote: post #142
daveloyall wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate this pushback against my use of "them". I appreciate your astute description of what it is like to be a person. ...Forgive me, if you want, when I contradict myself! I think there's some value in cliques. I was reminded of this recently when some buddies and I started an every-other-Sunday RPG group. (Heroes Unlimited, FWIW.) The conversations that come up in that group are really great. The common groun…

I'm not surprised that your response is so charitable – I wouldn't have bothered responding to you to start with if I thought you seemed like you're just a jerk out to score points against "the other" – but thanks anyway. What I dislike is not so much the existence of cliques, I agree with you that they have an important place, and I certainly have, and in the past have always had, various "circles" that I enjoy bein…

This is interesting because there's like, a role-reversal thing going on here. I don't know if you're aware of it, but I tend to go to the mat for the underdog, the abused (the pejored, if you will!).

But that's it. I'd oppose somebody if I observed them on the attack, but never start anything. And that behavior was systematic. Frankly, it's exploitable.

So, I dunno. I'm in flux. Rethinking some things. Practicing allowing myself to think, even SAY--"you know what? Some people suck, objectively".

I guess your comment "doing their best to figure out a path for themselves through a mystifying world" inspired me to mention that part.

I think the upshot of rejecting some people is that you can lower your cognitive load in group situations. You mentioned it: categorization. For me, it's a pretty fundamental shift (that I'm not sold on yet): actually adding a new category: those that I'd leave behind first in some sort of lifeboat situation. I know that's really harsh. Fortunately real-world lifeboat situations are rare? Without such categorization, you can land in some REALLY dumb situations...

Post reply on HN