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GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

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Re: GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

#101

Post by tbrownaw »

jlarocco wrote: post #84
vezzy-fnord wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In an employment environment, that is clearcut sexual harassment. Wait, really? I've never posted it myself, but textual descriptions like "[hug]" as a way of expressing gratitude or solidarity are common and mundane in plenty of communities. Now, sure, cluttering technical discussions with stuff like this isn't preferable. To call it "clearcut sexual harassment" is ludicrous and completely devalues the term in quest…

> Wait, really? I've never posted it myself, but textual descriptions like "[hug]" as a way of expressing gratitude or solidarity are common and mundane in plenty of communities. I'd bet none of the communities you've seen it is a workplace.

No, actual workplace interactions that have all the involved humans in the same physical location don't use textual descriptions.

Instead you get the actual actions. Because people who spend that much time interacting tend to not stay in a Platonic Ideal "strictly professional" relationship, but become acquaintances or even friends. In which case it's that set of rules that apply, rather than the ivory tower set of rules based on said Platonic Ideal.

Re: GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

#102

Post by appleflaxen »

tomp wrote: post #61
arihant wrote: post #49

This is probably a parallel, but I still think Apple came up with the best, most self-disciplining code of conduct of all times: > We will reject Apps for any content or behavior that we believe is over the line. What line, you ask? Well, as a Supreme Court Justice once said, "I'll know it when I see it". And we think that you will also know it when you cross it. Yes, they do publish more direct rejection reasons too…

The problem with blank statements such as this is that "the line" is a moving goalpost. I'd (reluctantly) support even completely arbitrary enforcement, as long as it's not retroactive. But if they first accept apps with Confederate flag, and then ban them later, that's IMO a very bad precedent.

But culturally, there are many big examples where that's exactly what happenened over time: things that are initially considered "just fine" gradually become abhorrent or indefensible.

  slavery
  women as property
  child labor
and others that really seem to be moving in that direction:

  child discipline / spanking
  circumcision
  homosexuality and gay marriage
  confederate flag (which is exactly your example)

Re: GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

#103

Post by voltagex_ »

UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #58
voltagex_ wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stuff like that doesn't belong on an issue tracker, whether it's invited or not. Bring back the mailing lists.

> Bring back the mailing lists. Huh? So you both support the CoC but also want to "bring back" a form of communication which is entirely unmoderated? That's super contradictory.

I should have been more explicit. A GitHub issue is for discussing a problem or idea for a particular repository. Hugs, virtual or otherwise seem to be completely tangential.

Also, a mailing list can be one of the most strictly moderated forms of communication.

Re: GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

#104

Post by josteink »

ehvatum wrote: post #97

This section of the "code of conduct" is extremely odd without some context: > Our open source community prioritizes marginalized people’s safety over privileged people’s comfort. We will not act on complaints regarding: > ‘Reverse’ -isms, including ‘reverse racism,’ ‘reverse sexism,’ and ‘cisphobia’ > Reasonable communication of boundaries, such as “leave me alone,” “go away,” or “I’m not discussing this with you” >…

You may have missed the memo, but according to new wave feminism, the word "meritocracy" represents discrimination because you don't give special treatment to people based on sex, ethnicity etc.

I'm not kidding, and Github had adopted this view as well. [1]

Among many, this CoC is seen as a continuation of this largely feminist agenda. And we don't think it belong here. Open source I'd apolitical, meaning you can avoid political issues entirely in a good and neutral environment.

Why work so hard to make it political? For what gains?

[1] http://readwrite.com/2014/01/24/github-meritocracy-rug

Re: GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

#105

Post by jlarocco »

tbrownaw wrote: post #101
jlarocco wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wait, really? I've never posted it myself, but textual descriptions like "[hug]" as a way of expressing gratitude or solidarity are common and mundane in plenty of communities. I'd bet none of the communities you've seen it is a workplace.

No, actual workplace interactions that have all the involved humans in the same physical location don't use textual descriptions. Instead you get the actual actions. Because people who spend that much time interacting tend to not stay in a Platonic Ideal "strictly professional" relationship, but become acquaintances or even friends. In which case it's that set of rules that apply, rather than the ivory tower set of r…

So your workplace doesn't use email, source control, instant message, group chat, or any other kind of electronic text communication?

But in a way that just emphasizes why "[hug]" would be awkward and borderline inappropriate in a work setting. How often do coworkers physically hug at work?

I'm not saying it would always be wrong to use "[hug]" (or even physically hug somebody at work), but I'd expect it to be far less common than in some other settings.

Re: GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

#106

Post by sagichmal »

zxcvcxz wrote: post #76
sagichmal wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I set up my web browser to automatically change > "political correctness" to "treating people with > respect" https://twitter.com/byronclarknz/status/628702214391902208 If you use the phrase "social outrage" or "social justice" as a pejorative, you're part of the problem :)

What do you call people who use social justice as an excuse to harass and belittle people who have different opinions than them? You shouldn't be upset at people using terms like social justice as a pejorative, you should be upset that people are attempting to push authoritarian ideology under the moniker of social justice :)

    > What do you call people who use social justice as an 
    > excuse to harass and belittle people who have different 
    > opinions than them?
Strawmen :)

Re: GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

#107

Post by dang »

vfdfv wrote: post #98
anon3_ wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you use the phrase "social outrage" or "social justice" as a pejorative, you're part of the problem :) The first thing is to understand it's a problem to simply prima facie discount someone. It is outrage at social things. 9/10 of the people complaining are just trolls who don't even code. The rest are beta males who emasculate themselves playing apart in it. 5 years from now - they're going to risk losing too m…

Ah I just knew I would see mention of "beta male" strewn somewhere in this shithole thread. You are a moron :)

> Ah I just knew I would see mention of "beta male" strewn somewhere in this shithole thread. You are a moron :)

Hi there, please take a moment to get (or re-get) up to speed with HN's standards for commenting:

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html

It's critical that comments here be civil and substantive, even when someone else's comments aren't, indeed even when they seem like a moron. Otherwise discussions get sucked into the tedious downward spiral that this site exists to try to avoid.

Normally we'd ban a new account that posts comments like that, since we get a lot of them, mostly by serial trolls. But you've already posted a couple of interesting comments, so I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Re: GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

#108

Post by anon3_ »

cmsj wrote: post #90
anon3_ wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And what if I did? Learning to ignore things that could unreasonably sour your mood is a valuable skill in life anyway. Life itself doesn't really have a code like proposed. De-escalated depending on the context of the situation. Code of Conduct defines problems and could turn anything funny, innocent, etc. into an excuse to ruin someone's life. 9/10 times it's someone who doesn't program (an Adria Richards, Shanle…

-1. Implies lines of code is the only possible contribution one can make.

Do you expect everyone to water down thoughts with a bullet-point list of qualifiers to have a point?

The people causing the social outrage debacles, often can't program. They're complete outsiders who think they can use social ideas and useful idiots as a vehicle for their own benefit.

Many QAers and PM's can or have programmed some, at one point, or else they wouldn't understand the domain of the problem.

Most of the trouble crowd tend to be social marketers and so-called "evangelists" on twitter.

They're not programmers.

These people leading the vanguard of your code of conduct movements - they're not even really tech. They're happy when you invent these new job positions to give them a paycheck.

Re: GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

#109

Post by DanBC »

josteink wrote: post #104
ehvatum wrote: post #97

This section of the "code of conduct" is extremely odd without some context: > Our open source community prioritizes marginalized people’s safety over privileged people’s comfort. We will not act on complaints regarding: > ‘Reverse’ -isms, including ‘reverse racism,’ ‘reverse sexism,’ and ‘cisphobia’ > Reasonable communication of boundaries, such as “leave me alone,” “go away,” or “I’m not discussing this with you” >…

You may have missed the memo, but according to new wave feminism, the word "meritocracy" represents discrimination because you don't give special treatment to people based on sex, ethnicity etc. I'm not kidding, and Github had adopted this view as well. [1] Among many, this CoC is seen as a continuation of this largely feminist agenda. And we don't think it belong here. Open source I'd apolitical, meaning you can avo…

Meritocracy is sexist because it's bullshit. We know it's bullshit from the resumé experiments or the blinded orchestra auditions etc.

Re: GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

#110

Post by tptacek »

anon3_ wrote: post #79
sagichmal wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I set up my web browser to automatically change > "political correctness" to "treating people with > respect" https://twitter.com/byronclarknz/status/628702214391902208 If you use the phrase "social outrage" or "social justice" as a pejorative, you're part of the problem :)

> If you use the phrase "social outrage" or "social justice" as a pejorative, you're part of the problem :) The first thing is to understand it's a problem to simply prima facie discount someone. It is outrage at social things. 9/10 of the people complaining are just trolls who don't even code. The rest are beta males who emasculate themselves playing apart in it. 5 years from now - they're going to risk losing too m…

I resent the implication that "conservatives" are necessarily people who would find the "beta male" trope congenial. I have plenty of conservative friends. None of them buy into this proto-PUA nonsense.
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