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GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

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Re: GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

#61

Post by tomp »

arihant wrote: post #49

This is probably a parallel, but I still think Apple came up with the best, most self-disciplining code of conduct of all times: > We will reject Apps for any content or behavior that we believe is over the line. What line, you ask? Well, as a Supreme Court Justice once said, "I'll know it when I see it". And we think that you will also know it when you cross it. Yes, they do publish more direct rejection reasons too…

The problem with blank statements such as this is that "the line" is a moving goalpost. I'd (reluctantly) support even completely arbitrary enforcement, as long as it's not retroactive. But if they first accept apps with Confederate flag, and then ban them later, that's IMO a very bad precedent.

Re: GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

#62

Post by thomasfoster96 »

anatoly wrote: post #51
thomasfoster96 wrote: post #3

Looking through some of the issues on that repo, the amount of bad faith people have in the very idea of a code of conduct is astonishing. Not to mention the sheer ignorance of issues affecting minorities within the tech community (seriously, Jon Stewart could have had a weeks worth of material). Sure, the wording of the code of conduct wasn't perfect, but it'd be much nicer if people wanted to see it improved in goo…

I think many people who criticize the idea feel that it's been heavily pre-politicized to push for a particular version of "social justice" meme-complex. And if you discount that driving force and that motivation, it isn't clear that a CoC is either needed or useful. If you try to think about it in a clean-slate way, sort of; forget "oppression", "microagressions against minorities" and all the other politicized jarg…

The difference between setting some community norms and having a code of conduct seems to be writing it down. And, in writing things down, there's one reference for the rules/guidelines and everyone knows what they are. Is much prefer GitHub to set some rules rather than have year's worth of what would essentially become case law. Plus, community norms aren't exactly working either, so..

Overall, with a bit of editing (perhaps the code of conduct should be rewritten to avoid as many politicised words as possible), I'm not sure where the difference is between a well written code of conduct and a 'be nice' community norm.

Re: GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

#63

Post by anon3_ »

Svenstaro wrote: post #46
josteink wrote: post #20

That's the smartest thing they've done all week. Now it's time to bury it dead. This is a solution looking for a problem (tm). The only thing this code of conduct does beside state the obvious (behave like adults) is the implied distrust expressed by introducing it in the first place: that without being nannied into proper behaviour, we would all act like vile animals. Generally I find such nannying deeply offensive.

I agree. I have yet to encounter a truly bad interaction on Github. And what if I did? Learning to ignore things that could unreasonably sour your mood is a valuable skill in life anyway. Life itself doesn't really have a code like proposed.

> And what if I did? Learning to ignore things that could unreasonably sour your mood is a valuable skill in life anyway. Life itself doesn't really have a code like proposed.

De-escalated depending on the context of the situation.

Code of Conduct defines problems and could turn anything funny, innocent, etc. into an excuse to ruin someone's life.

9/10 times it's someone who doesn't program (an Adria Richards, Shanley Kane) who will be attacking someone who actually contributes.

Re: GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

#65

Post by stefantalpalaru »

plonh wrote: post #24
stefantalpalaru wrote: post #4

> to protect people who are typically the target of harassment in open source So if you are subjected to an unusual type of harassment, you're on your own?

It is very tempting to question the motives of who believes a 0% solution is better than 55% first step.

Those are the motives of somebody who believes that no policing at all is better than half-ass policing.

We already have organizations that deal with illegal activities. We pay them for it and we give them a monopoly on violence, so why not use them instead of trying to replicate what they do, partially and poorly?

Re: GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

#66

Post by EliRivers »

Svenstaro wrote: post #50
EliRivers wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's offensive, to a woman, to talk to her without permission from her male guardian. It's offensive, to a woman, to ask for some man's permission to talk to her. Both of these are true. Both of these are false. In order to know what's offensive for any given group, a written summary is extremely helpful. Posit a group of people brought together from around the world from many varied cultures. They have no way to kno…

Bottom line is: People will find ways to feel offended.

Yes they will. If you have no written rules, when they get offended, you've got problems. If you have the written rules, when they get offended, you can kick someone out for either breaking the rules or complaining about something that isn't against the rules. So much easier.

Re: GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

#67

Post by drinchev »

arihant wrote: post #49

This is probably a parallel, but I still think Apple came up with the best, most self-disciplining code of conduct of all times: > We will reject Apps for any content or behavior that we believe is over the line. What line, you ask? Well, as a Supreme Court Justice once said, "I'll know it when I see it". And we think that you will also know it when you cross it. Yes, they do publish more direct rejection reasons too…

Your comparison resembles a bit the continental and anglo-saxon legal systems.

In the European-continental legal system, based on Roman law, you have a stress on written law and exceptions are dealt based on similarities with it.

In the Anglo-saxon legal system you have decision based on a set of people ( jury ) and on the practice ( precedent ) in the past.

As a conclusion I would say they both work and both of them have Pros & Cons.

Re: GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

#68

Post by skarap »

ipsin wrote: post #41
zxcvcxz wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

hugs plonh

Thanks, that's what I immediately thought. If you know someone or have formed any kind of relationship with them, that sort of "virtual hug" can be appropriate, but in other contexts it can be a pretty damn creepy way to push buttons. This is me violating your personal space.

But it's not the only possible way to violate someone's personal space (or be creepy) in an internet discussion. You could say "Last night had this strange dream where you were being eaten by lion" or "I think I'll make a poster with your photo and put it on my bedroom ceiling". The possibilities are endless.

So you can either disallow all personal communication allowing only professional/on-topic stuff (maybe also making everyone use Esperanto so there are no misunderstandings) or you have real humans judging if someone is being a jerk based on their own understanding what "jerk" means.

The later is how the real world was doing it for thousands of years (though this is also changing). When a child goes to school she/he is expected to behave in some normal way - parents are supposed to help create that behavior when upbringing the child. And if at school the child does something bad, they call the parents and then the parents are expected to explain the child why it is bad and make sure that doesn't happen again.

Summoning the parents is (unfortunately) not an option here, but warning and banning people should work.

Re: GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

#69

Post by jp_sc »

teamhappy wrote: post #54
zxcvcxz wrote: post #21

>Physical contact and simulated physical contact (eg, textual descriptions like “ hug ” or “ backrub ”) without consent or after a request to stop. [violates the code of conduct] I can't tell if this is a joke or not.

Can't wait to hear a legal professional's opinion vis-à-vis simulated back rubbing. But seriously, I'm hearing about this for the first time. Can anybody explain to me why this particular CoC is more controversial than any other random CoC?

Juts read any or all of the many linked pull requests.

Re: GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

#70

Post by xiaoma »

ipsin wrote: post #41
zxcvcxz wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

hugs plonh

Thanks, that's what I immediately thought. If you know someone or have formed any kind of relationship with them, that sort of "virtual hug" can be appropriate, but in other contexts it can be a pretty damn creepy way to push buttons. This is me violating your personal space.

In Latino cultures, a hug would be completely appropriate. Why is it your culture that gets to decide? I find that attitude in itself offensive, especially considering we're talking about text.

If you get creeped out by even a virtual hug and see more open people as violators, that's your problem, not theirs.

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