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An Oakland shooting reveals how cops snoop on cell phones

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21–30 of 51 posts

Re: An Oakland shooting reveals how cops snoop on cell phones

#21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let unconstitutionally acquired exidence stand? No, let's not let the abuses of a government stand, as we should also go after its agents.

The constitutionality of actions used to obtain evidence is completely independent of the truth of the defendants guilt or innocence. If the actions are bad, actually prosecute the actions in non-kangaroo proceedings. A) let the abuses of a government stand B) go after its agents In the US we have neither A nor B.

The Constitution restricts what government may do against individuals. Perhaps the agents that break the rules should be held individually accountable in more cases than they currently are (though, as with most cases of using law to provide accountability for executive agents, there are agency problems that make that unlikely to be effective in many important cases), but that should not be an excuse to void the purpose of the restrictions, which is to limit the power of government, not just its agents individually. The government cannot be allowed to benefit from the it's unconstitutional acts while certain agents are punished as scapegoats.

Re: An Oakland shooting reveals how cops snoop on cell phones

#22
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tl;dr: The least ethical time to ignore the law is when a highly dynamic incident is underway. > If three armed gang members are on the run after shooting someone, and an informant names some suspects, looking up the location of the suspects' phones seems acceptable to me. I have no doubt that stingrays are abused, but this specific instance, even if not legal, is ethical. This assumes that 1. The informant is truthf…

I'm aware of the inaccuracy of eyewitness testimony, but that's not relevant in this case. The tip came from a known confidential informant, not a random person. The police were going to pursue the lead, stinger or no. The stinger just made it easier for them to verify that the suspects were at their homes. Yes, proper procedures are important. Yes, I doubt this stinger usage was legal. Yes, this was bad police work.…

>> Eyewitnesses are generally pretty terrible at providing a true and accurate accounting of specific details in a sudden situation. For many reasons, informants can be misinformed, confused, incorrect, malicious.

> I'm aware of the inaccuracy of eyewitness testimony, but that's not relevant in this case. The tip came from a known confidential informant, not a random person.

Many informants provide information all the time about crimes. Accuracy and reliability of informant reporting is always an issue for police. Again, that's why they have procedures dictating how they have to verify information, etc.

The article says only "confidential informant," so you may have misread and assigned more value to the informant's report than you otherwise would have, which is understandable.

> Yes, this was bad police work

The issue here isn't "bad" police work as much as it's "warrant-less search and seizure." So, possibly illegal police work. They were quite competent and use tools that haven't necessarily been outlawed yet; when courts start outlawing stingrays, then its incompetence.

> Now for a thought experiment:

If I leave evidence at the scene of a crime, it's understood to be within the law for the police to collect it and analyze it. Fingerprints, body fluids, electronic devices, all fair game. I have no reasonable expectation of privacy if I've left stuff at a crime scene.

This is not that. This is if the police didn't need a warrant to enter your house and collect fingerprint/other samples, for the purpose of determining if you may have been involved in a crime in the past. That's a violation of your right of the people to be secure in your person, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures.

In a similar way, the courts need to decide if it's also a violation when police, without a warrant, sett a wiretrap to spoof a cell phone tower with the intent of discovering a person's location or other personal information from a person's private electronic devices.

It's held to be the case that a wiretap cannot be placed without a warrant. It is reasonable to extend that logic to the automatic/unintentional/"unconscious" communication a person's cell phone does with the cellular network, to say nothing about using that stingray to capture actual explicit communications made by the person over that network.

I do get where you're coming from; I just don't agree that the argument you've laid out is sufficient to subjugate a constitutionally dictated right. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out in the federal courts and in congress.

Re: An Oakland shooting reveals how cops snoop on cell phones

#23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The constitutionality of actions used to obtain evidence is completely independent of the truth of the defendants guilt or innocence. If the actions are bad, actually prosecute the actions in non-kangaroo proceedings. A) let the abuses of a government stand B) go after its agents In the US we have neither A nor B.

The Constitution restricts what government may do against individuals. Perhaps the agents that break the rules should be held individually accountable in more cases than they currently are (though, as with most cases of using law to provide accountability for executive agents, there are agency problems that make that unlikely to be effective in many important cases), but that should not be an excuse to void the purpo…

Sometimes it's not only about the government. Sometimes victims of crime deserve justice, too.

Re: An Oakland shooting reveals how cops snoop on cell phones

#24
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe the bad guys are really bad, but sometimes I hope that they get off just to make the point that the cops are suppose to do the "right thing", otherwise the cops really are the bad guys The US way is to exclude evidence and protect the cops--the idea being that cops have no motive to cross lines if they can't use the evidence. More and more I'm leaning towards what I understand is the European way: let the evi…

Why let the evidence stand? Shouldn't it be preferable to exclude the illegally-obtained evidence and punish the police for obtaining it illegally?

I think it depends on whether you think justice should seek truth or some sort of malleable truth theater. Causing an actual criminal go unpunished when extremely convincing evidence of guilt is known (but concealed from the jury) only further harms the victims.

Re: An Oakland shooting reveals how cops snoop on cell phones

#25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Constitution restricts what government may do against individuals. Perhaps the agents that break the rules should be held individually accountable in more cases than they currently are (though, as with most cases of using law to provide accountability for executive agents, there are agency problems that make that unlikely to be effective in many important cases), but that should not be an excuse to void the purpo…

Sometimes it's not only about the government. Sometimes victims of crime deserve justice, too.

While I don't normally think in terms of slippery slope arguments, this would easily fall into such territory. After all how hard would it be to prosecute a cop whose illegal evidence goes a serial killer off the street? Give it a generation or two and we would end up with cops who only get convicted of the worst breaches, and effectively zero constitutional protection.

Re: An Oakland shooting reveals how cops snoop on cell phones

#27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Constitution restricts what government may do against individuals. Perhaps the agents that break the rules should be held individually accountable in more cases than they currently are (though, as with most cases of using law to provide accountability for executive agents, there are agency problems that make that unlikely to be effective in many important cases), but that should not be an excuse to void the purpo…

Sometimes it's not only about the government. Sometimes victims of crime deserve justice, too.

> Sometimes it's not only about the government. Sometimes victims of crime deserve justice, too.

When the power of the executive branch of government is being used as the means seek something, its always about the Constitutional limits on government. No matter what you feel you deserve, the Constitution is the deal by which the outer bounds of the scope of your privilege to have the coercive power of government deployed to get you what you deserve is limited.

Government shouldn't get to escape the Constitutional limits on its application of power against those subject to it because "think of the victims of crime", or "think of the children", or "think of..." whatever else.

Otherwise, we're tossing out the concept of limited government in favor of arbitrary power.

Re: An Oakland shooting reveals how cops snoop on cell phones

#28
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tl;dr: The least ethical time to ignore the law is when a highly dynamic incident is underway. > If three armed gang members are on the run after shooting someone, and an informant names some suspects, looking up the location of the suspects' phones seems acceptable to me. I have no doubt that stingrays are abused, but this specific instance, even if not legal, is ethical. This assumes that 1. The informant is truthf…

I'm aware of the inaccuracy of eyewitness testimony, but that's not relevant in this case. The tip came from a known confidential informant, not a random person. The police were going to pursue the lead, stinger or no. The stinger just made it easier for them to verify that the suspects were at their homes. Yes, proper procedures are important. Yes, I doubt this stinger usage was legal. Yes, this was bad police work.…

How likely is a latent to produce a false positive? What if the police burst into your house and start dusting for prints because they're "collecting evidence." They then run those prints through their database of existing prints, match you to a crime in another state for which you have an alibi, and arrest you. You're held without bail because it was a violent crime, and your presence in another state at the time of arrest marks you as a flight risk. Because the court where your trial will be held has a several month backlog, you spend several months in jail. On the first day of the trial, evidence is heard of your alibi, which exonerates you.

How would that be just for any of the parties involved?

Re: An Oakland shooting reveals how cops snoop on cell phones

#29
post #14
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

an informant names some suspects, looking up the location of the suspects' phones seems acceptable to me. Wasn't the "secret informant" a wiretap they didn't want subject to legal scrutiny? That's the impression I got from the article?

FTA: "At times, cops have gone as far as to falsely claim the existence of a confidential informant while in fact deploying this particularly sweeping and invasive surveillance tool." The author suggests - between the lines anyway - that the authorities claim there's a CI, when really that CI is a Stingray. To apply that logic to this case, the CI "X" seems to be a convenient way to get around pesky constitutional pr…

Sounds like The Wire.

Re: An Oakland shooting reveals how cops snoop on cell phones

#30
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no reason to think they're on a rampage or anything. There was no threat of a future crime. So why is it ethical to throw out all the checks and balances? There's no good moral or ethical argument I can see, you're just hand waving because you feel like they deserve to get caught. The police department was obviously just embarrassed that service weapons had been stolen.

> There was no threat of a future crime. If there is any circumstance in which someone is likely to commit future crimes, it's probably after shooting a cop and taking their gun. At that point, the punishment is so bad that additional crimes are a rounding error. If carjacking or robbery can decrease your chances of getting caught, they're worth doing. Ditto for destroying evidence. It's fortunate that none of these…

My initial read of this story is the same as yours. If accounts are to be believed, these suspects are violent and the police have legitimate reasons to be after them. Bringing this as an example does injustice to those with more legitimate concerns over police surveillance.

Then I start playing devil's advocate. They don't know this guy is a cop initially; if they did they probably would have been deterred by the risks and stiff penalties involved in harming law enforcement. They also didn't kill the cop even though they had ample opportunity to do so: they wave weapons at him, they shoot him nonfatally in the arm, they beat him up, but this may be because they saw his gun and saw him as a threat. The suspects have clearly committed crimes against the cop but it's less cut and dry whether they would have done the same had the officer done something differently.

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