Google’s $6B Miscalculation on the EU • Hacker News Board

Re: Google’s $6B Miscalculation on the EU

#111

Post by pgeorgi » Fri, Aug 07, 2015, 1:30 PM UTC

weddpros wrote: post #65

For a long time, countries agreed that free-trade was the best way to avoid another war. Europe was created as an economic region first, to avoid another war. But today I'm afraid Europe suffers memory loss. They're using coercion against another country (always the same one, the USA) for ideological reasons... which is the very definition of war. The fact they're citing money as the reason only makes it more frighte…

In my experience, the clashes of European companies with EU regulators just don't create as much press.

The most recent anti-trust/cartel activity is listed by the European Commission for Competition:

http://ec.europa.eu/competition/elojade/isef/index.cfm?fusea...

http://ec.europa.eu/competition/cartels/cases/cases.html

Currently that covers: something about pay-TV in UK/Ireland, Qualcomm, a bunch of European cargo train operators, a pan-European retail food packaging cartel, something about a Bulgarian Energy Holding, German car heating and climate control vendors, Amazon, SkyTeam.

Of these, two are American (Qualcomm, Amazon), one has a US company involved (Delta Airlines as part of SkyTeam), everything else is EU internal.

That doesn't look like coercion against another country ("always the USA") to me.

I guess there are two reasons why the media is mostly covering the cases where US companies are involved:

First, the big tech companies are mostly American. Being big brings you on the radar of both regulators (everywhere) and the media covering the industry.

Second, EU tech media takes cues from US tech media. When the US media report on something (such as a potential problem for the international business of their local industry), EU tech media pick it up.

Up until today I haven't heard about the retail food packaging cartel, but with a €115M penalty that must have been a bigger issue. But why should HN (and related media) cover that? They're no household names, so it's also not covered in the general press. But I'm quite certain that the trade press of the retail food industry will cover this in great detail.

Re: Google’s $6B Miscalculation on the EU

#112

Post by 9872 » Fri, Aug 07, 2015, 1:38 PM UTC

simonh wrote: post #45

adventured wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was an easy solution for Yelp: opt out of Google search results. What Yelp wants, is to have their cake and eat it too. They want to benefit from what Google offers, and they want Google to behave exactly as they would prefer, assuming control over Google's product through government power. Classic competitor hypocrisy, the same behavior displayed 15 years ago by Microsoft's extremely envious competition. They…

If search results that hit Yelp data linked to Yelp there'd be no problem. However if it links to Google Places because Google scraped the Yelp data and loaded it into the Places database - that's a problem. Suppose someone launched an 'Encyclopedia Search' service that searched Wikipedia, Encyclopedia Britanica, etc and linked to their sites. The the service then started loading the Wikipedia and Britanica content i…

Poor analogy. Yelp contains facts and user reviews. Encyclopedias contain facts conveyed through written articles. The writing and reviews may be copyright protected. Facts are not.

Re: Google’s $6B Miscalculation on the EU

#113

Post by 9872 » Fri, Aug 07, 2015, 1:40 PM UTC

weddpros wrote: post #65

For a long time, countries agreed that free-trade was the best way to avoid another war. Europe was created as an economic region first, to avoid another war. But today I'm afraid Europe suffers memory loss. They're using coercion against another country (always the same one, the USA) for ideological reasons... which is the very definition of war. The fact they're citing money as the reason only makes it more frighte…

Considering they are not using any violence, I think this falls a bit short of the very definition of war.

Re: Google’s $6B Miscalculation on the EU

#114

Post by 9872 » Fri, Aug 07, 2015, 1:41 PM UTC

guelo wrote: post #3

If you look at what has happened in China after Google left, how they were able to quickly grow massive web companies, protectionism seems like a no-brainer for every slightly advanced country. Silicon Valley sees the huge first-mover advantages and is moving as fast as possible to move into every liberalized market. But it makes no sense for a country to allow Silicon Valley to take these industries for themselves.…

That did not happen because Google left. Google was never even close to beating baidu.

Re: Google’s $6B Miscalculation on the EU

#115

Post by stdbrouw » Fri, Aug 07, 2015, 1:43 PM UTC

wil421 wrote: post #99

guelo wrote: post #3

If you look at what has happened in China after Google left, how they were able to quickly grow massive web companies, protectionism seems like a no-brainer for every slightly advanced country. Silicon Valley sees the huge first-mover advantages and is moving as fast as possible to move into every liberalized market. But it makes no sense for a country to allow Silicon Valley to take these industries for themselves.…

No Americans are forcing you to use our services. If you have a problem then don't use them it's that simple. You're able to boycott anything on the Internet. I'm tired of Anti-American sentiment when your governments are in bed with ours. American companies weren't the only ones sharing data. German and Belgium telecoms were in bed with spy agencies and not just with the Five Eyes. In public Merkle was outraged but…

I don't see any anti-American sentiment in the OP's message. He's just making an economic argument that may or may not be correct.

Re: Google’s $6B Miscalculation on the EU

#116

Post by Zirro » Fri, Aug 07, 2015, 1:49 PM UTC

louithethrid wrote: post #82

Im in Germany, i can see no investment to grow a european google. Oh, yes there are great declarations of grandios plans. But my experience in a baker-shop can tell you everything on the european attitude towards technology. "So what are you doing for a livin?" "I work as a software developer.." "Oh, so your company doesent produce anything real?" You cant force a culture to embrace something new that it detests. Thi…

Please don't speak of a "European attitude towards technology" when there is none. For example, I can't imagine hearing the attitude you describe here in Sweden, and I believe you could find plenty of germans who would disagree with you as well.

Not only are we many different countries, but we are also different individuals. There is no common "European attitude towards technology".

Re: Google’s $6B Miscalculation on the EU

#117

Post by iribe » Fri, Aug 07, 2015, 1:51 PM UTC

choppaface wrote: post #43

Much of this debate centers on the premonition that Google highlights their own content and services in order to fight competition and maximize their own profits. They are acting intentionally and rationally. But their monopoly is hurting others, so we (er, the EU) convict(s) Google of malice. However, another plausible position is that Google is merely behaving negligently . There are some studies (paid by competito…

This reminds me of the EU imposing browser choice on Microsoft's European customers. The result was a larger market share for google in the EU. In the USA, where no choice was mandated, Microsoft push forth bing and as a result, it has ~9% market share and growing. Given the choice, everyone chooses Google. I think Google would be fine with giving users a choice of default maps when searching a location, default reviews, etc. But the EU would not like the outcome and they would come back for more regulation when their intent, to harm google aka knock em down a peg aka "bring diversity" is not met.

The fallacy with the EU's position is the notion of 'diversity'. Code word for "let our companies compete better". If the free market doesn't want that, any 'remedy' will in fact harm users. What the EU must do is simply focus on the question, "are consumers harmed". Anything else is begging for problems. EU bureaucrats are not smarter than the market. If EU companies are able to attract the capital and users to them, wonderful. But the fundamental problem is 'attracting capital' to a rigid (and apparently protectionist) market.

Re: Google’s $6B Miscalculation on the EU

#118

Post by jaawn » Fri, Aug 07, 2015, 1:58 PM UTC

I have seen several comments that basically say "Google puts customers first, but this goes against the EU's strong preference to protect local workers."

It is not "customers over workers" it is "customers over local corporations with less developed products". Google has offices in 40 different countries (https://www.google.com/about/careers/locations/). Workers could easily go work for Google without moving to America...and Google offers some of the best, most competitive career prospects of any company. Until this changes, there is no reason to presume that Google's behavior in Europe is somehow hurting "workers."

Sure, if Google was providing inferior products, and paying its workers lower-than-market salaries and abusing its dominance to keep better products out of the market, then all of this fuss would make sense. Fear of this happening at some point is not, in my opinion, a good justification for such heavy resistance to Google's activities.

We shouldn't confuse the interests of local (i.e. European) corporations with the interests of the people. It being harder for a Danish company, for example, to enter the online search, mapping, or shopping market doesn't mean it is harder for Danish people to work in online search, mapping, or shopping. It also does not mean it is harder for Danish people use high-quality products in these industries. I don't see how Google's actions so far constitute "abuse of dominance" even if you take a protection-of-workers stance...only if you take a "protection of the local corporate CEO" stance.

Re: Google’s $6B Miscalculation on the EU

#119

Post by tiatia » Fri, Aug 07, 2015, 2:09 PM UTC

allendoerfer wrote: post #74

levosmetalo wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Kick the Americans out? Ok, well now BMW, Porsche, and Mercedes are banned in the US. Germany just lost a huge part of its economy (look up the two biggest markets for their vehicles: the US and China). As someone living in a German city which is a world leading car manufacturing center, I would actually like to see the end of German auto industry. The whole German economic system is geared towards those big car ma…

I think you greatly underestimate how many jobs are dependent on our auto industry. It is not only the cars, big companies like Bosch and a plethora of hidden champions, that dominate their segment but nobody recognizes, would not be possible if it were not for the close connection at home to a world-wide leading industry. I am not even sure, that Silicon Valley is ahead when it comes to "digital stuff" inside cars.…

Yeah, sure.

You mean besides the extreme bureaucracy, poor funding opportunities, poor exit opportunities.

Germany is probably one of the WORST places for a start-up.

Re: Google’s $6B Miscalculation on the EU

#120

Post by ocdtrekkie » Fri, Aug 07, 2015, 2:11 PM UTC

IBM wrote: post #33

>Although she uses Google frequently, Vestager says it doesn’t cloud her view of the case. “Congratulations for being big, but don’t misuse it. For Europeans, this is very fundamental,” she says. >That might be the scariest thing of all for Google. It isn’t dealing with an antitech ideologue or a competition czar consumed with cementing a personal legacy. It faces a straightforward prosecutor in a hostile political c…

Absolutely. In another article, Vestager is said to have the nickname the "Iron Lady of Denmark". Google can't buy her out. And as a stepladder-carrying woman in a leadership position, she's a formidable leader and icon that Google can't easily tear down or discredit.

If they try and break up Google though, I expect Google to leave the EU wholesale rather than comply.