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Greybeard Stories: The Jamming Gyro

penzba.co.uk

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Re: Greybeard Stories: The Jamming Gyro

#11

This will be the last of these stories for a while. The previous two stories pretty much sank without trace, so I thought I'd finish and submit this one, then stop writing them up and re-think the effort. In case you're interested: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=996250 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=994358

Your stories are most appreciated. If I extrapolate from myself, the problem is simply that the people who enjoy submissions like these are often reluctant to go through the new submissions.

Re: Greybeard Stories: The Jamming Gyro

#12
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know it's a joke, but the truth is that this is exactly the kind of bug that unit tests won't find. The unit tests would have simulated a bunch of gyro settings, with and without a single gyro failure (but not two gyro failures, as that was an accepted design limitation). Running the gyros with the torpedo still on the boat, however, would not have been tested because the designers didn't think of it. If they had t…

Testing can verify that your software works within the space of behavior that you already know about. It can't make up for your failure to understand the problem fully. Thinking about correctly testing software is generally one of the best ways to improve your understanding of the problem. I quite often find bugs during unit testing simply because I'm forced to think about how the software will break, rather than thi…

Sure, writing tests can find design bugs. But that's not really the question at hand here. The specifics are that we have a clear and obvious requirement ("torpedo should self-destruct if it turns a full 360 degrees") that turns about to be missing an important point ("EXCEPT IF IT IS ON THE BOAT").

No amount of testing the former will lead you to realize the latter. Sure, you might happen to come to the realization while writing the test, but you might do so over breakfast too.

I'm not saying "don't do testing". I'm trying to point out that it has limits. The fact that you've written tests and they pass doesn't get you off the hook for design bugs.

Re: Greybeard Stories: The Jamming Gyro

#13
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Testing can verify that your software works within the space of behavior that you already know about. It can't make up for your failure to understand the problem fully. Thinking about correctly testing software is generally one of the best ways to improve your understanding of the problem. I quite often find bugs during unit testing simply because I'm forced to think about how the software will break, rather than thi…

Sure, writing tests can find design bugs. But that's not really the question at hand here. The specifics are that we have a clear and obvious requirement ("torpedo should self-destruct if it turns a full 360 degrees") that turns about to be missing an important point ("EXCEPT IF IT IS ON THE BOAT"). No amount of testing the former will lead you to realize the latter. Sure, you might happen to come to the realization…

No amount of testing the former will lead you to realize the latter. Sure, you might happen to come to the realization while writing the test, but you might do so over breakfast too.

You're a bit more likely to do it during a time you've set aside to fully consider potential failure scenarios.

Re: Greybeard Stories: The Jamming Gyro

#14
Interesting (and depressing) story. On one of your posts you say:

"Sometimes because of the nature of my work I get to hear stories from a greybeard with a past that is, well, "interesting." And again, because of the nature of my work, or more accurately, because of the nature of their work, the stories can't be verified."

What's the nature of your work?

Re: Greybeard Stories: The Jamming Gyro

#15

Interesting (and depressing) story. On one of your posts you say: "Sometimes because of the nature of my work I get to hear stories from a greybeard with a past that is, well, "interesting." And again, because of the nature of my work, or more accurately, because of the nature of their work, the stories can't be verified." What's the nature of your work?

I imagine the problem is they are military/corporate stories :)

Re: Greybeard Stories: The Jamming Gyro

#16

This will be the last of these stories for a while. The previous two stories pretty much sank without trace, so I thought I'd finish and submit this one, then stop writing them up and re-think the effort. In case you're interested: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=996250 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=994358

It sounds like one of these stories with educational/entertainment purposes rather than a description of an actual problem or event. I did find one reference -

"D. E. Stevenson attributes this story to Nancy Leveson, Software System Safety, STAR '93, Ontario at Darlington, Ontario. 1993.

A torpedo was designed to self-destruct if it turned 180 degrees. Unfortunately for the test ship the torpedo stuck in the tube and the captain turned the ship around for port "

It sounds mildly more plausible since it doesn't begin with the rather improbable torpedo design problem of 'submarines shooting themselves with their own torpedo'.

Still, if tasked with designing a reasonably safe torpedo, one of the very first things you're likely to come up with are 'armed' and 'safe' modes with the torpedo staying in 'safe' mode until it is about to be launched. The next obvious safety feature would be to make the torpedo return to 'safe' mode the moment significantly abnormal conditions are encountered - say, stuck in tube, wildly off-course, etc.

Adding a self destruct mechanism seems highly unsafe - there's the problem of the self-destruct mechanism malfunctioning and activating at an inopportune time. Additionally, if the torpedo has no idea where it is, the last thing you probably want is having it blow up - possibly near you or a friendly.

The actual stories of the difficulties developing WWII torpedoes are quite interesting and offer plenty of lessons in complex systems design, testing and deployment - see:

http://www.ww2pacific.com/torpedo.html

A design flaw that must have been particularly galling: "The conventional contact exploder was designed for the earlier, slower, 33 knot, Mk 13 torpedo. The newer, faster, 46 knot, Mk 14 torpedo had higher inertial impacts that would cause the firing pin to miss the exploder cap. " In other words, the more squarely you hit your target, the more likely the torpedo would fail.

Re: Greybeard Stories: The Jamming Gyro

#17

This will be the last of these stories for a while. The previous two stories pretty much sank without trace, so I thought I'd finish and submit this one, then stop writing them up and re-think the effort. In case you're interested: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=996250 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=994358

This was a great story with all kinds of lessons about the things we do every day and understandable by almost anyone, including people new to our industry.

This will be the last of these stories for a while.

RiderOfGiraffes, I urge you to reconsider...

The previous two stories pretty much sank without trace

Which probably means nothing. There are many reasons stories do or do not get votes, with quality and interest only two of them. You must also consider time of day, day of week, competition from other stories, competition from other sites, competition from non-internet activities, competition from work, mix of people on-line at that time, mix of lurkers, mix of people who don't vote yet, etc., etc., etc.

Over the years I have made the exact same comment multiple times just to see if the reaction would vary, and it always did. One comment got over 60 up-votes and 6 months later got none.

What does this mean? Nothing. Just keep on posting.

...then stop writing them up and re-think the effort

It's perfectly normal to re-think the effort, but don't stop writing while you're rethinking.

This is a place for builders and entrepreneurs. We may eventually quit, but usually long after others would.

I have 2 signs over my desk, "It Doesn't Matter" and "Jabez Wolffe". When things get tough, the former keeps me from having a stroke and the latter keeps me from quitting. Jabez Wolffe attempted the English Channel 22 times without success. Once, when he didn't know where he was and conditions were dangerous, he quit 100 yards from shore.

Don't be Jabez Wolffe. Your next story may make a big difference in someone's life. If I'm on-line at the time, I'll vote it up. Keep 'em coming.

Re: Greybeard Stories: The Jamming Gyro

#18
Seems implausible to me. Rather than a self-destruct, it would be more plausible to just disable the explosive trigger altogether. If a torpedo fails to hit target for whatever reason (including, but not limited to the original problem) you don't necessarily want it to explode in some random place. Nor is it clear how, if this failure did occur with loss of all hands, we would ever have known about it.

Despite this, I take the point of the story to be that self-corrective failure detection mechanisms should not be capable of causing greater harm than the maximum plausible damage of the problem they were intended to correct.

Re: Greybeard Stories: The Jamming Gyro

#20
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, writing tests can find design bugs. But that's not really the question at hand here. The specifics are that we have a clear and obvious requirement ("torpedo should self-destruct if it turns a full 360 degrees") that turns about to be missing an important point ("EXCEPT IF IT IS ON THE BOAT"). No amount of testing the former will lead you to realize the latter. Sure, you might happen to come to the realization…

No amount of testing the former will lead you to realize the latter. Sure, you might happen to come to the realization while writing the test, but you might do so over breakfast too. You're a bit more likely to do it during a time you've set aside to fully consider potential failure scenarios.

I guess I can't argue with that, as it's essentially unfalsifiable. But it's worth pointing out that writing a unit test, which is the subject that started this discussion, is definitely not a time when you're "fully considering potential failure scenarios". Unit tests are narrow and focused, and aimed at verifying features.

What you're talking about is something I'd call white box QA. Which is valuable, though it's essentially just an extension of design, and has the same limits.

My broad point still stands: you can't "process" your way out of this with extra testing. Some bugs are just inherent, and stem from the fact that we're human.

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