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Show HN: Careers for people not going to college, built with Meteor

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Re: Show HN: Careers for people not going to college, built with Meteor

#101
post #3

For people nearing the end of high-school, please go to college. I don't have a degree and have been extremely lucky; I managed to get into middle-management and have been successful. The problem is that I'm not as "portable" as I would be with a degree - in other words, a layoff or termination could put my lifestyle in jeopardy. As such, I am going back to school at 29. Get it over with :)

Agreed. When people say degrees are overrated and there are too many people with "useless" degrees, they're not talking about science and engineering degrees. Skipping a degree in CS is just making things harder for yourself. Best case scenario you'll just spend that 4 years working up your salary to what you would have had in the first place with a degree.

>Best case scenario you'll just spend that 4 years working up your salary to what you would have had in the first place with a degree.

Wouldn't the best case scenario be more like founding Apple, MS or FB or becoming the president of YC?

Re: Show HN: Careers for people not going to college, built with Meteor

#103
post #54
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Money opens those doors even wider. Once you hit a certain level of financial independence, not only is it easy to visit wherever you choose, but permanent residency and even citizenship often become much more straightforward as well.

No one is saying go to college and forget about money. I don't know if you're saying this based on what you heard over the shoulder but I actually do know a thing or two about buying citizenship and green card with money. It is FAAAAAAAR easier to just go to college than become rich enough not to care about these things. Most college grads will never accumulate enough money in their youth to buy green card from count…

>I don't know if you're saying this based on what you heard over the shoulder

I've spent half my adult life living abroad and have met many people foreigners in many countries including the US who have gotten great visas without a college degree. And money isn't even the only way.

Becoming an expert at one's field is also a great route to a visa, and it pays a whole lot better than being just another person with a degree. For certain fields, a college degree is required and the gatekeepers are inflexible. For those in fields where success is more easily observable—sales, direct response marketing, entrepreneurship, novel writing, programming, pop music, etc—it's better to save the money and spend the time on actually mastering the craft and its business rather than on collecting credentials.

@eshvk: I know multiple foreign nationals without degrees who have held engineering or even engineering leadership positions at YC companies.

Re: Show HN: Careers for people not going to college, built with Meteor

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As another person who detests classes, exams, etc, I can feel your pain. University/College is useful for computer science, though. One of the problems in industry is that there are a huge number of cowboy coders who dismiss all of the important things they learned (or not!) at school. The number of times I've run across people who said things like, "Statistics is a complete waste of time", and then "benchmarked" the…

>devote yourself to finding alternative means of learning all of the academic things you will need. Definitely part of the roadmap. The sort of person you described here: >The number of times I've run across people who said things like, "Statistics is a complete waste of time", and then "benchmarked" their app by running it once... Bugs me immensely. One of the barriers I've had trouble piercing, and that wouldn't re…

> One of the barriers I've had trouble piercing, and that wouldn't really go away in a more traditional academic context is how to learn the 'language' of math used in academic computer science papers.

Interesting that you say that. I taught English for 5 years in Japan (without an education degree, so I suppose it's kind of related to the conversation ;-) ). I did a considerable amount of study on language acquisition. Although I find the research "sketchy", the work of Stephen Krashen is very compelling. I tried to apply the principles in my classroom and in my own acquisition of Japanese. I found it to be quite enlightening. (Fair warning: Krashen's work has a following that pretty much thinks "This is the way it is -- for sure!" and are trying to prove it. On the other side are people who think he's definitely wrong. As in many fields of psychology, it is hard to build good studies, so people mostly shout at each other ;-) ).

Anyway, if you are interested, take a look at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_hypothesis

In a nutshell: There are 2 types of learning: learning and acquisition. Learning is about remembering stuff. Acquisition is about being able to use stuff without really thinking about it (i.e. it comes unbidden to your mind when you see a reference).

A good example of the difference is reading. Take a look at an English word:

Apple

When you read it, what came to your mind? What thought process did you follow to get there. Now if I told you that in Japanese sakana=fish, inu=dog, ringo=apple and then write:

Inu Sakana Ringo

How does your thought process change? Now go back and look at the English word I wrote earlier, but this time try not to remember what it means. Can you look at the word and not read it? How difficult is it? Now look at the Japanese words and try not to remember what they mean. Can you notice a difference?

I hope you can. That difference is the difference between acquisition and learning. With English, the meaning comes unbidden to your mind. With Japanese, you have to actively try to associate the word in your brain with the reading -- even if you can remember that meaning already.

Being able to look at something and instantly recognise it, or to have it spring to your mind automatically when you want to use it requires acquisition. So when you speak English, you don't sit and plan the grammar of the sentences that you want to say. You have a thought and the English just shows up in your brain. In fact, it shows up so conveniently that you can actually use it as part of your thought process (i.e. thinking in English). When you get fluent in another language you can do the same in that language.

Finally, I get to the punchline. I have been told by some people that mathematics works the same way for people who are fluent in it. It's just another language and they can think in math because they have acquired it.

How do you acquire a language? That's the $64,000 question. According to Krashen, acquisition is a function of input that you can understand. Output seems to be unnecessary (although, personally I find it helpful even if it is unnecessary).

It's a difficult topic and I've already typed too much, but if you would like to try something, this is what I did for learning Japanese. Do not memorise vocabulary or grammar. Do not try to reason the whys and wherefors of the system. Instead memorise exemplars of the language. Just an example sentence for things you come across that you don't know. Make a flashcard (spaced repetition software is useful: http://ankisrs.net/). Read appropriate level material and keep making/memorising cards for anything you don't know.

The memorisation builds a fast lookup table that allows you to work out your own comprehensible input. Then by reading, reading, reading, reading, you get lots of comprehensible input. Finally you can test whether or not you have acquired the input by trying to produce output.

Hopefully this will help you with your math.

Re: Show HN: Careers for people not going to college, built with Meteor

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>devote yourself to finding alternative means of learning all of the academic things you will need. Definitely part of the roadmap. The sort of person you described here: >The number of times I've run across people who said things like, "Statistics is a complete waste of time", and then "benchmarked" their app by running it once... Bugs me immensely. One of the barriers I've had trouble piercing, and that wouldn't re…

> One of the barriers I've had trouble piercing, and that wouldn't really go away in a more traditional academic context is how to learn the 'language' of math used in academic computer science papers. Interesting that you say that. I taught English for 5 years in Japan (without an education degree, so I suppose it's kind of related to the conversation ;-) ). I did a considerable amount of study on language acquisiti…

>Hopefully this will help you with your math.

Not particularly, thank you though that was interesting for orthogonal reasons. I already knew the role of memorization in language acquisition and have actually seen quite a bit of that advice on HN prior. (As a further point of evidence for the importance of memory in cognition, notice that Jon Von Neumann had an eidetic memory. I suspect that being able to wholly memorize something at first glance would assist massively with being superintelligent.)

The problem is finding clear examples of what things mean in the first place, or understanding symbols. Mathematics has no standard language of description, and like a natural language it is highly context based. From an outside perspective it is difficult to figure out what is an established concept I should go read more about and what is being introduced as part of the problem for this specific local context.

Moreover there is strictly less mathematics text involved than there is English text, so the training corpus is smaller.

Re: Show HN: Careers for people not going to college, built with Meteor

#107
post #82

I went to school and dropped out twice — Caltech and Georgetown. I think I maybe have 20 credit hours under my belt? I don't even know. I'm now 24. I've done quite okay for myself. On paper, I'm not that appealing — non-violent/non-drug related felonies, dropped out of two very highly-regarded schools ("there must be something wrong here"), and some baggage from when I was a child ("mommy/daddy issues") that still sn…

If you have an opportunity to go to a really top-end school, sure, take it. That's really valuable. But remember, that's not an opportunity most people have.

Don't pretend that a degree from the school you see advertised on daytime TV is the same sort of product.

This, I think, is the "big lie" about college. The idea that a poor person with a degree from a shitty college is going to have even just the opportunities that I had[1]... is a lie. There's really no other way to put it. Sure, if you can get into a really good college and make sure you work your way into a peer group of successful people? It can be a great leg up. Hell, if I thought I could get into Stanford, I'd take four years off right now[2]. But going to the sort of college your average poor person is going to go to, and being around other people in that same situation isn't going to get you the opportunities I got for just being born.

[1]to be clear, My parents were pretty solidly middle class, not rich. So am I. I'm a competent but not great sysadmin/programmer; I didn't go to college, but I had all of the advantages that your average kid who goes to a mid-level college would have.

[2]But the sort of mid-level school that would accept a mid-level middle-class mid-achieving guy like me? Maybe a nice UC? Yeah, four years at your average mid-level school isn't going to increase my salary any more than four years of changing my job to focus on the more in-demand bits of my industry. Probably a lot less, in fact. I mean, it sounds like a lot of fun, but I don't know if it's half a million bucks in fun.

Re: Show HN: Careers for people not going to college, built with Meteor

#108
post #82

I went to school and dropped out twice — Caltech and Georgetown. I think I maybe have 20 credit hours under my belt? I don't even know. I'm now 24. I've done quite okay for myself. On paper, I'm not that appealing — non-violent/non-drug related felonies, dropped out of two very highly-regarded schools ("there must be something wrong here"), and some baggage from when I was a child ("mommy/daddy issues") that still sn…

I'm in a similar position. Also 24, and didn't finish college. I haven't had trouble getting jobs, but I still have to answer the "So why didn't you finish school" question no matter where I apply. I ended up just leaving my education off my resume but I still seem to get asked often.

Re: Show HN: Careers for people not going to college, built with Meteor

#109
TL;DR: university gave to me (and to my friends who have degrees) wider interest field, with skills to absorb information about new topics. In my own experience usually drop-outs and people who've did not attend college, have shallower and narrower interest fields.

IMHO, college/university degree is worth it (coming from Europe where education is way cheaper than in US), in regards you will also broaden your skill-set while attending school. Though, if you seek academical career 'real life' skill-set is somewhat less important.

Maybe it's just me and my social circles, but usually I can find out if someone has attended college or not (or just skimmed through classes), just by talking with them.

For reference, I had few colleagues who did their job well, though where completely clueless out of their job requirements range. They have not attended college, or dropped out very early. They had narrower and way shallower interest fields than people I know with degrees.

I want to stress that it's experience from my own social circles and I am not talking about exceptional cases (there are geniuses drop outs and geniuses with PhDs)

Re: Show HN: Careers for people not going to college, built with Meteor

#110
post #108
post #82

I went to school and dropped out twice — Caltech and Georgetown. I think I maybe have 20 credit hours under my belt? I don't even know. I'm now 24. I've done quite okay for myself. On paper, I'm not that appealing — non-violent/non-drug related felonies, dropped out of two very highly-regarded schools ("there must be something wrong here"), and some baggage from when I was a child ("mommy/daddy issues") that still sn…

I'm in a similar position. Also 24, and didn't finish college. I haven't had trouble getting jobs, but I still have to answer the "So why didn't you finish school" question no matter where I apply. I ended up just leaving my education off my resume but I still seem to get asked often.

Well, honesty hour: why didn't you?

My reason (maybe for inspiration?)... If someone expects me to read a book and apply concepts from it, I'm going to have a terrible time. Not because I can't read, but because I won't. I don't learn by reading a book. I learn by doing.

Georgetown was first — more traditional school. That didn't last long. Thought that somewhere more "in my niche" would do things differently.

Nope.

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