Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’ • Hacker News Board

Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#51

Post by troym » Tue, Aug 04, 2015, 9:42 PM UTC

rosser wrote: post #47

cwbrandsma wrote: post #42

I'm mixed on this. For background, I'm from Idaho and the son of a dairyman in this state. I know the intimate details of how this law came about, I know the dairyman whose operation was filmed, and I've seen the film. From the viewpoint of the guys in ag, their concern is more about the lies that got spilled out over the initial film, and the death threats that came afterwards. Couple of side facts: * some of the em…

Just like with police abuses, the fix for the problem is to shine as bright a light as possible on it until it's understood and can be addressed. For many people, at least, a clear understanding that not all cops are bad actors — that, in fact, the bad actors constitute an overwhelming minority of the population. (But also, unfortunately, that the problem in that case is exacerbated by the "thin blue line".) Blocking…

> that, in fact, the bad actors constitute an overwhelming minority of the population

This survey contradicts that assertion: http://www.aele.org/loscode2000.html

From the survey:

`In response to “Please describe the first time you witnessed misconduct by another employee but took no action,” 46 percent (532) advised they had witnessed misconduct by another employee, but concealed what they knew.`

If we can trust the survey results, methodology, etc, the minority of which you speak is 46%.

Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#52

Post by azakai » Tue, Aug 04, 2015, 9:44 PM UTC

cwbrandsma wrote: post #42

I'm mixed on this. For background, I'm from Idaho and the son of a dairyman in this state. I know the intimate details of how this law came about, I know the dairyman whose operation was filmed, and I've seen the film. From the viewpoint of the guys in ag, their concern is more about the lies that got spilled out over the initial film, and the death threats that came afterwards. Couple of side facts: * some of the em…

I can understand that they are worried about lies being told, but the solution to malicious liars is not to stifle free speech in general.

The fact is, sadly, that in any free society freedom of speech will be misused by some people.

And the fact remains that in this particular space, we do need people to be able to blow the whistle if something wrong is being done. We know that bad things do happen, and when they do, they can be horrifying. The animals have basically no defense but the conscience of the owner, and, should that fail, a whistleblower.

Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#53

Post by cwbrandsma » Tue, Aug 04, 2015, 9:46 PM UTC

rosser wrote: post #47

cwbrandsma wrote: post #42

I'm mixed on this. For background, I'm from Idaho and the son of a dairyman in this state. I know the intimate details of how this law came about, I know the dairyman whose operation was filmed, and I've seen the film. From the viewpoint of the guys in ag, their concern is more about the lies that got spilled out over the initial film, and the death threats that came afterwards. Couple of side facts: * some of the em…

Just like with police abuses, the fix for the problem is to shine as bright a light as possible on it until it's understood and can be addressed. For many people, at least, a clear understanding that not all cops are bad actors — that, in fact, the bad actors constitute an overwhelming minority of the population. (But also, unfortunately, that the problem in that case is exacerbated by the "thin blue line".) Blocking…

That is the argument I heard from many of the dairyman in this state. Unfortunately, most are already dealing with the point of "you are guilty until we say you aren't -- which will be never". You can't win arguments against anonymous opponents.

Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#54

Post by suprgeek » Tue, Aug 04, 2015, 9:48 PM UTC

Great move and perfect examples of the Court doing its job i.e. striking down Stupid laws that do not pass constitutional muster.

BUT The fact that this law WAS even on the books is blatant proof that Dollars buy Laws in the United states. I think this has gotten much more egregious since the citizens United Ruling. We are very much veering towards an Oligarchy.

Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#55

Post by cafard » Tue, Aug 04, 2015, 9:49 PM UTC

troym wrote: post #51

rosser wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just like with police abuses, the fix for the problem is to shine as bright a light as possible on it until it's understood and can be addressed. For many people, at least, a clear understanding that not all cops are bad actors — that, in fact, the bad actors constitute an overwhelming minority of the population. (But also, unfortunately, that the problem in that case is exacerbated by the "thin blue line".) Blocking…

> that, in fact, the bad actors constitute an overwhelming minority of the population This survey contradicts that assertion: http://www.aele.org/loscode2000.html From the survey: `In response to “Please describe the first time you witnessed misconduct by another employee but took no action,” 46 percent (532) advised they had witnessed misconduct by another employee, but concealed what they knew.` If we can trust the…

One would need to know what the misconduct consisted of, in order to judge what this means. Is the misconduct accepting free coffee at the 7-11, or is it beating a prisoner?

Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#56

Post by rosser » Tue, Aug 04, 2015, 9:49 PM UTC

troym wrote: post #51

rosser wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just like with police abuses, the fix for the problem is to shine as bright a light as possible on it until it's understood and can be addressed. For many people, at least, a clear understanding that not all cops are bad actors — that, in fact, the bad actors constitute an overwhelming minority of the population. (But also, unfortunately, that the problem in that case is exacerbated by the "thin blue line".) Blocking…

> that, in fact, the bad actors constitute an overwhelming minority of the population This survey contradicts that assertion: http://www.aele.org/loscode2000.html From the survey: `In response to “Please describe the first time you witnessed misconduct by another employee but took no action,” 46 percent (532) advised they had witnessed misconduct by another employee, but concealed what they knew.` If we can trust the…

I'm specifically making a distinction between the bad actors — people who commit an overtly abusive act — and the "thin blue line", which is cops who are aware of the abuses, but conceal or misrepresent what they've seen.

The 46% you cite numbers among the latter. For all you know, though, the people those 46% are talking about having seen committing "misconduct" are the same folks over and over.

I'm not downplaying police abuses, and I'm not excusing the people who don't speak up and call it out when it occurs, but I think it remains useful to make a distinction between them.

Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#57

Post by mavrc » Tue, Aug 04, 2015, 10:00 PM UTC

Pxtl wrote: post #18

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe if you guys elected that biker who debated in a leather jacket things would have been different. Or at least more interesting. ;)

Wait, you're telling me that a guy named "Butch" isn't the leather-jacket biker guy? How can you be named "Butch" and not be a biker? Idahoans, explain yourselves!

There is no explanation for us.

Also, not only is "Butch" not the biker in question, but the biker in question was not even the weirdest candidate for office. The televised gubernatorial debate was so bizarre it made Colbert. Enjoy.

http://thecolbertreport.cc.com/videos/sk5fyk/idaho-s-bizarre...

Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#58

Post by betenoire » Tue, Aug 04, 2015, 10:10 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #29

themartorana wrote: post #4

Thank you, Judge B. Lynn Winmill, of the United States District Court for the District of Idaho. Let your name be repeated and known as someone that does away with laws bordering on absurdism and pure corporate protectionism. That this even needed to be reviewed because it passed state legislatures is insane. That it's a law mimicked by many states is very seriously disturbing. It means that there are hundreds or mor…

While I strongly support the decision, in a place like Idaho, these laws aren't about corporate greed, although they certainly benefit corporations. Agriculture in these states is politically untouchable. In Idaho, agriculture and food processing is directly responsible for 6% of jobs and 7% of GDP. Accounting for service jobs supporting that sector doubles or triples that number. And in the rural counties that carry…

I don't understand your distinction.

Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#59

Post by astrocat » Tue, Aug 04, 2015, 10:10 PM UTC

cwbrandsma wrote: post #42

I'm mixed on this. For background, I'm from Idaho and the son of a dairyman in this state. I know the intimate details of how this law came about, I know the dairyman whose operation was filmed, and I've seen the film. From the viewpoint of the guys in ag, their concern is more about the lies that got spilled out over the initial film, and the death threats that came afterwards. Couple of side facts: * some of the em…

Can someone elucidate why existing defamation laws don't cover this already?

Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#60

Post by troym » Tue, Aug 04, 2015, 10:20 PM UTC

rosser wrote: post #56

troym wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that, in fact, the bad actors constitute an overwhelming minority of the population This survey contradicts that assertion: http://www.aele.org/loscode2000.html From the survey: `In response to “Please describe the first time you witnessed misconduct by another employee but took no action,” 46 percent (532) advised they had witnessed misconduct by another employee, but concealed what they knew.` If we can trust the…

I'm specifically making a distinction between the bad actors — people who commit an overtly abusive act — and the "thin blue line", which is cops who are aware of the abuses, but conceal or misrepresent what they've seen. The 46% you cite numbers among the latter. For all you know, though, the people those 46% are talking about having seen committing "misconduct" are the same folks over and over. I'm not downplaying…

I tend to agree with you and I understand the distinction you're making.

And yet:

> but conceal or misrepresent what they've seen.

That's lying. They're accomplices to the abuse and worse, perpetual enablers of it.

Apologies for veering the thread off-topic. I'm just bothered by the notion of "it's just a few bad apples."