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A Plan to Turn Engineers into Managers

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Re: A Plan to Turn Engineers into Managers

#71

Post by maxxxxx »

Ensorceled wrote: post #32
plinkplonk wrote: post #12

"Don’t manage only to advance your career. Many tech companies have parallel career paths to seniority for both technical and managerial high-performers." Is this really true? Many engineers do become managers only to advance their careers. The "parallel" technical career path never seems to deliver equal amounts of power, or even money, as compared to managers on the same level. Even when a rough parity exists on pa…

In my 30 years of experience, the "parallel" technical track is really only for super stars. As merely a very good developer, management pays better.

That's what I have observed as freelancer in a lot of companies. People who rise high on the technical track have to be exceptional (and often get let go to save money) whereas managers can be average and have more staying power.

My advice to anybody who wants to have a long career and make good money is to go into management.

this may be different for companies where there is more respect for engineers.

Re: A Plan to Turn Engineers into Managers

#72

Post by bonzini »

levosmetalo wrote: post #40
Ensorceled wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my 30 years of experience, the "parallel" technical track is really only for super stars. As merely a very good developer, management pays better.

And by "superstar", it's usually a person that can communicate his ideas eloquently and knows how to effectively evangelize and self-promote. It has not much to do with the actual technical competency. So, the skillset required to become a "technical superstar" resembles more of a skillset required for good manager or marketing persona than actual engineering skill set, though some level is required.

It's actually a different skillset than management.

A good manager is able to act as the interface between multiple teams, for example collecting requirements and resolving impedence mismatches. A developer who has advanced along the technical path does need some social and people management skills, but the role is very different. For example, they can mentor junior developers, or they can work with their managers to ensure that technical problems at said interface are spotted before they become problematic.

Re: A Plan to Turn Engineers into Managers

#73

Post by maxxxxx »

anotherdatem wrote: post #36
plinkplonk wrote: post #12

"Don’t manage only to advance your career. Many tech companies have parallel career paths to seniority for both technical and managerial high-performers." Is this really true? Many engineers do become managers only to advance their careers. The "parallel" technical career path never seems to deliver equal amounts of power, or even money, as compared to managers on the same level. Even when a rough parity exists on pa…

I'm a VP at a mid-sized ($100mm revenue) startup. I report to the CTO, and am his probable successor. I make slightly less than our highest paid engineer. I would recommend finding a company with a true parallel track, rather than dedicating yourself to a job that you don't want, and thus likely won't ever be great at.

What industry is that? In companies I have seen it's a matter of principle that an engineer can't make as much money as managers. They would lay off the best engineer in the world before giving him as much money as they make.

Re: A Plan to Turn Engineers into Managers

#74

Post by bonzini »

msravi wrote: post #16
plinkplonk wrote: post #12

"Don’t manage only to advance your career. Many tech companies have parallel career paths to seniority for both technical and managerial high-performers." Is this really true? Many engineers do become managers only to advance their careers. The "parallel" technical career path never seems to deliver equal amounts of power, or even money, as compared to managers on the same level. Even when a rough parity exists on pa…

It's probably true, but the thresholds to move up to the next level are vastly different. On the "management" ladder, you probably need to mostly stay out of the way of your team and let them execute, while acting occasionally to filter information up/down the chain. If you've stayed in the position for a reasonable time and have not really screwed things up, you advance to the next level. On the technical ladder, on…

This may be true for the low levels of the management ladder, but it definitely won't take you to the point where you have 2-300 people under you and growing.

Re: A Plan to Turn Engineers into Managers

#75

Post by markbnj »

I took on a project management role in a "take one for the team" scenario, and it was a disaster. I believe I managed the project fairly well, but since I hadn't wanted the job in the first place I felt I had some leeway to do things my way, and the boss ended up resenting that I didn't "want" the job and didn't reflect that by working hard to get things done his way. I ended up leaving the company after four years of good reviews. Not a mistake I will repeat.

Re: A Plan to Turn Engineers into Managers

#76

Post by wahsd »

plinkplonk wrote: post #12

"Don’t manage only to advance your career. Many tech companies have parallel career paths to seniority for both technical and managerial high-performers." Is this really true? Many engineers do become managers only to advance their careers. The "parallel" technical career path never seems to deliver equal amounts of power, or even money, as compared to managers on the same level. Even when a rough parity exists on pa…

It's an unfortunate truth of our society and business culture that we see these things as linear, hierarchical progressions rather than what they are, different roles with different purposes. Just like in the educational sphere we see High School < Bachelor < Master < PhD, there is a tendency to see technical < managerial from a leadership perspective and managerial < technical from a technical perspective. I wish we would move away from that stupid way of thinking. Devs are one role, PMs play another role, managers, directors, VPs ... they all should be serving distinct and different yet essentially equal roles, yet we see it as a competition and instill an artificial hierarchy. It's really only a symptom of a larger social value structure thing though, so it won't change any time soon or without a disruptive process in between the two states.

Re: A Plan to Turn Engineers into Managers

#77

Post by jacalata »

anotherdatem wrote: post #36
plinkplonk wrote: post #12

"Don’t manage only to advance your career. Many tech companies have parallel career paths to seniority for both technical and managerial high-performers." Is this really true? Many engineers do become managers only to advance their careers. The "parallel" technical career path never seems to deliver equal amounts of power, or even money, as compared to managers on the same level. Even when a rough parity exists on pa…

I'm a VP at a mid-sized ($100mm revenue) startup. I report to the CTO, and am his probable successor. I make slightly less than our highest paid engineer. I would recommend finding a company with a true parallel track, rather than dedicating yourself to a job that you don't want, and thus likely won't ever be great at.

How many VPs are there, and how many engineers at his pay grade? As in, if a junior engineer at your company is looking at their future, are there five times as many chances to become a VP as to become a highly paid tech superstar?

Re: A Plan to Turn Engineers into Managers

#78

Post by michaelochurch »

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #66
plinkplonk wrote: post #12

"Don’t manage only to advance your career. Many tech companies have parallel career paths to seniority for both technical and managerial high-performers." Is this really true? Many engineers do become managers only to advance their careers. The "parallel" technical career path never seems to deliver equal amounts of power, or even money, as compared to managers on the same level. Even when a rough parity exists on pa…

Until engineering decides to do something about it, engineering will always be subordinate to management. There are no true parallel career paths.

Until engineering decides to do something about it, engineering will always be subordinate to management.

There are no true parallel career paths.

You nailed it. That is all. If we want respect, we have to fucking earn it by forcing businessmen to see us as equals, whatever the effort and cost.

Re: A Plan to Turn Engineers into Managers

#79

Post by ryandrake »

The day I decided to make it a goal to switch from developing software to management: I was sitting at my desk at 8:00 at night fixing some bug and I looked across the sea of gray half-height cubicles at a someone 30 years older than me doing the same thing with the exact same job title, probably not making much more than I.

At 95% of companies, there is zero career development and advancement once you become a "Senior Software Engineer". Fix that and you'll see more engineers stay put (where they're likely happier and more productive).

Re: A Plan to Turn Engineers into Managers

#80

Post by Maro »

I've done the engineer -> manager transition successfully about two years ago. The biggest help for me (=somebody who likes to read) was the Hardard Business Review's 'Guide to X' series:

https://hbr.org/store/landing/guides

In particular (X=):

- Better Business Writing

- Coaching Employees

- Giving Effective Feedback

- Finance Basics for Managers

- Office Politics (parts of it)

But really, all of them are pretty good, at about ~150 pages each, I plan to read all of them just to be sure.

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