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Show HN: Play poker with LLMs, or watch them play against each other

llmholdem.com

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Re: Show HN: Play poker with LLMs, or watch them play against each other

#91

Post by darepublic »

projectyang wrote: post #55
mashlol wrote: post #4

I'm not an expert, but as I understand it there are existing solvers for poker/holdem? Perhaps one of the players could be a traditional solver to see how the LLMs fare against those?

While others have commented about solvers, I'd also like to bring up AI poker bots such as Pluribus ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluribus_(poker_bot) ). This also wouldn't even be a close contest, I think Pluribus demonstrated a solid win rate against professional players in a test. As I was developing this project, a main thought came to mind as to the comparison between cost and performance between a "purpose" b…

Should be noted that this bot is heads up only? I believe a form of heads up poker is effectively solved as well-- limit hold'em heads up

Re: Show HN: Play poker with LLMs, or watch them play against each other

#92

Post by DiscourseFan »

tim-kt wrote: post #17
DiscourseFan wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlike Chess, in poker you don’t have perfect information, so there’s no real way to optimize it.

You can still optimize for the expectation value, which is also essentially poker strategy.

Anybody who plays poker “optimally” is bound to lose money when they come up against anyone with skill. Once you know the strategy your opponent is employing you can play like you have anything. I believe I’ve won with 7,2 offsuite more than any other hand, because I played like I had the nuts.

Re: Show HN: Play poker with LLMs, or watch them play against each other

#93

Post by sejje »

bionsystem wrote: post #79
sejje wrote: post #19

I used to play professionally, and I still play in the casinos. These LLMs are playing better than most human players I encounter (low limits). They're kinda bad, but not as criminally bad as the humans.

I just watched for 5 min and no they don't play very well. Deepseek squeezed with K4o against CO open and BTN call with full stacks. Grok 3b AI with 25bb in the button with Q4s. Those are very far from optimal play which is well known since solvers. I wonder how they've been trained.

Considering a squeeze puts deepseek ahead of most human players. Maybe not an optimal squeeze, but most human players flat if they're going to play.

Grok's play is obviously bad, no solver needed. I wonder what he said in the "log" where you can see their thoughts. I guess he can hopelessly be trying to rep AA--again, I've seen worse thought processes every time I've ever played in a casino.

I really think GPT, at least, would win at a live casino. Possibly the other bots as well. The humans are that bad. Poker is complex.

Re: Show HN: Play poker with LLMs, or watch them play against each other

#94

Post by sejje »

p1dda wrote: post #73
sejje wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's, in fact, a much smaller mistake than I see humans make every hour.

[flagged]

How many BBs do you think JJ is worth being dealt preflop? I suggest you confirm your guess.

How many times do you see an obvious nut hand get called on the river by someone to whom it isn't obvious, for hundreds of BBs? (Every single session, that's the answer)

One of these is such a huge mistake compared to the other.

Re: Show HN: Play poker with LLMs, or watch them play against each other

#95

Post by cowthulhu »

DiscourseFan wrote: post #92
tim-kt wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can still optimize for the expectation value, which is also essentially poker strategy.

Anybody who plays poker “optimally” is bound to lose money when they come up against anyone with skill. Once you know the strategy your opponent is employing you can play like you have anything. I believe I’ve won with 7,2 offsuite more than any other hand, because I played like I had the nuts.

This is completely wrong - the entire point of the Nash equilibrium solution (in the context of poker, at least) is that it is, at worst, EV-neutral even when your opponent has perfect knowledge of your strategy.

Your 72o comment indicates you are either playing with very weak players, or have gotten lucky, as in reasonably competitive games playing (and then full bluffing) 72o will be significantly negative EV. Try grinding that strategy at a public 10/20 table and you will be quickly butchered and sent back to the ATM.

Re: Show HN: Play poker with LLMs, or watch them play against each other

#97

Post by DiscourseFan »

cowthulhu wrote: post #95
DiscourseFan wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anybody who plays poker “optimally” is bound to lose money when they come up against anyone with skill. Once you know the strategy your opponent is employing you can play like you have anything. I believe I’ve won with 7,2 offsuite more than any other hand, because I played like I had the nuts.

This is completely wrong - the entire point of the Nash equilibrium solution (in the context of poker, at least) is that it is, at worst, EV-neutral even when your opponent has perfect knowledge of your strategy. Your 72o comment indicates you are either playing with very weak players, or have gotten lucky, as in reasonably competitive games playing (and then full bluffing) 72o will be significantly negative EV. Try…

There are numerous videos of high level professional poker players winning large hands with incredible bluffs, this whole "Nash equilibrium solution" is nothing more than a conjecture with some symbols thrown in. I will re-iterate, there is no such thing as perfect knowledge when you have imperfect information. If you play "optimally," you will get bluffed out of all your money the moment everyone else at the table figures out what you're doing.

Re: Show HN: Play poker with LLMs, or watch them play against each other

#99

Post by [deleted] »

DiscourseFan wrote: post #97
cowthulhu wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is completely wrong - the entire point of the Nash equilibrium solution (in the context of poker, at least) is that it is, at worst, EV-neutral even when your opponent has perfect knowledge of your strategy. Your 72o comment indicates you are either playing with very weak players, or have gotten lucky, as in reasonably competitive games playing (and then full bluffing) 72o will be significantly negative EV. Try…

There are numerous videos of high level professional poker players winning large hands with incredible bluffs, this whole "Nash equilibrium solution" is nothing more than a conjecture with some symbols thrown in. I will re-iterate, there is no such thing as perfect knowledge when you have imperfect information. If you play "optimally," you will get bluffed out of all your money the moment everyone else at the table f…

[deleted]

Re: Show HN: Play poker with LLMs, or watch them play against each other

#100

Post by [deleted] »

DiscourseFan wrote: post #97
cowthulhu wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is completely wrong - the entire point of the Nash equilibrium solution (in the context of poker, at least) is that it is, at worst, EV-neutral even when your opponent has perfect knowledge of your strategy. Your 72o comment indicates you are either playing with very weak players, or have gotten lucky, as in reasonably competitive games playing (and then full bluffing) 72o will be significantly negative EV. Try…

There are numerous videos of high level professional poker players winning large hands with incredible bluffs, this whole "Nash equilibrium solution" is nothing more than a conjecture with some symbols thrown in. I will re-iterate, there is no such thing as perfect knowledge when you have imperfect information. If you play "optimally," you will get bluffed out of all your money the moment everyone else at the table f…

[deleted]
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