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Show HN: Searchable directory of 22k+ products from worker-owned co-ops

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Re: Show HN: Searchable directory of 22k+ products from worker-owned co-ops

#61
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is nothing inherently ethical about co-op owned organizations nor anything inherently unethical about privately owned organizations. I disagree. Co-ops are inherently democratic. Privately owned business is inherently anti-democratic. The difference only becomes starker as the scale increases. That alone makes it seem more ethical to me, before you even get to examining the way democratic organizations obviou…

Does adding democracy automatically increase ethical value? Suppose a group of racists form a coffee co-op dedicated to some silliness like "keeping the brown away from your brown". Or a group of homophobes that votes that their new t-shirt line should all riff on "killing fags protects families". Are those companies more ethical than a privately owned org that just wants any capable worker and any customer with curr…

For more information on why I think democracy makes things more ethical, see the other reply I left in this thread.

But to address your counterexamples:

1. None of your examples are countered by private organizations, they can and do make decisions motivated by ideology all the time. In fact, whenever you see real news of companies doing or supporting insane things, you can almost certainly be sure these companies are privately owned and that the insanity is passed down from the top.

2. For the rest of companies that really don't care about ideology and only care about making money, there's the argument that making money isn't a neutral standpoint, but one of chaos that just supports whatever is profitable. If putting people into concentration camps based on their race became culturally accepted, you know that discount stores will start selling clothing with hateful graphics, news sites would put up real-time counters and tech companies would develop exterior cameras with racial scanning and automatic reporting to cater to consumer demands.

3. Most crucially, democracies usually have a moderating effect on people's viewpoints. It's trivial to find companies ruled by crazy people with many normal subordinates going along because they need to make a living. It's a lot more difficult to find one that's stacked with insane people that produce insane decisions on average. Democracy lends itself to compromise, authoritarian rule lends itself to sycophancy that reinforces whatever comes from up top, no matter if it's sane or sensible.

Re: Show HN: Searchable directory of 22k+ products from worker-owned co-ops

#63
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+100... I'd love to find a spot at a tech co-op but they seem as common as a hen's tooth.

I founded a software engineering co-op. We're always interested in finding new members. https://508.dev Right now our main revenue is through subcontracting, and admittedly we haven't pulled a fresh gig in a couple months, mostly because most of us are working a gig which limits our ability to BD - a limitation we've been kicking around how to resolve for ages. We want to come up with some alternative revenue streams…

[deleted]

Re: Show HN: Searchable directory of 22k+ products from worker-owned co-ops

#65

Curious that you include REI. It's a retail coop model, not a worker-owned coop. Apropos: the way they ended the REI Adventures program is behavior consistent with a normal big-box chain. That is, announce the end simultaneously to their customers and REI's partner adventure companies, provide refunds to customers, but don't forward the relevant same customer info to the partners for rebooking because that's REI's pr…

REI changed about 25 years ago and it took a while for people to notice/the changes to filter through enough. Was talking recently about similar changes with MEC in Canada with a family friend who joined MEC as member 200-250. He had a chance to be in the first ~25 members but wasn't sure they'd still exist in a year. I think there still is value in a retail coop model but I think REI strayed from the area where it c…

> REI changed about 25 years ago

Changed how? It was always a consumer co-op, never a worker owned co-op. I joined in 1981.

Re: Show HN: Searchable directory of 22k+ products from worker-owned co-ops

#66
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is nothing inherently ethical about co-op owned organizations nor anything inherently unethical about privately owned organizations. I disagree. Co-ops are inherently democratic. Privately owned business is inherently anti-democratic. The difference only becomes starker as the scale increases. That alone makes it seem more ethical to me, before you even get to examining the way democratic organizations obviou…

Why does it seem more ethical for the organization that makes your daily bread to be democratic? I have no doubt that there are people who wish to attend meetings to vote and argue about minutia involves in the running of bakeries and other organizations. But just because people exist does not mean that the most ethical organization is one that gives them the most opportunity to exercise their particular interest in…

In the long run, you likely also benefit as a consumer from a diverse retail ecosystem, and worker co-ops in general tend to support this much better than traditional capitalist for-profit corporations.

The typical (but not universal) model in worker owned co-ops is for them to fork off new "branches" that are historically related to the original but otherwise independent.

The result tends to be a much more diverse set of businesses, some of which do better than others and some of which are more attuned to your preferences than the others.

Small capitalist for-profit businesses do the same, but we've seen how that ends up, with vertical integration and mega-corporations owning nearly all of them.

Re: Show HN: Searchable directory of 22k+ products from worker-owned co-ops

#67
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does it seem more ethical for the organization that makes your daily bread to be democratic? I have no doubt that there are people who wish to attend meetings to vote and argue about minutia involves in the running of bakeries and other organizations. But just because people exist does not mean that the most ethical organization is one that gives them the most opportunity to exercise their particular interest in…

> I don’t want a vote on whether or not my bakery puts sesame seeds on the bread. I just want to buy a loaf of bread thanks. You have an illusion of choice right now between sesame or non sesame bread through the low-resolution "voting" mechanism of the market, which doesn't actually consider your desires when counting votes, merely the profitability between your desires and a supplier's margin. If you like sesame, b…

I agree with everything you've written here, and am a big fan of worker-owned co-ops. However:

> Better to just cast a vote.

It's not hard to see "do I buy the sesame or non-sesame loaf this week?" as a much more efficient method of voting and vote tallying than actually voting.

I think the most successful worker owned co-ops tend to appear to the outside world as more or less indistinguishable from a capitalist for-profit, but internally are quite different.

Re: Show HN: Searchable directory of 22k+ products from worker-owned co-ops

#68
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what is the social benefit of worker-owned No capital-risking, and then rent-seeking, middleman, if I’m following.

I think they're saying "If REI makes the list because this is common in the space, what is the benefit of worker owned?" in trying to bolster the case that REI should not be listed. If many of the worker-owned co-ops would prevent access to relevant customer data to prevent individual workers from developing relations with customer without the co-op in the middle, then that's something that could potentially be addre…

The easy reply is: REI is pretty unusual,

and: what are the next two or three “problematic” companies on the list?

Re: Show HN: Searchable directory of 22k+ products from worker-owned co-ops

#69

I took a brief look at some of the products like coffee and im not sure they are competitive. What exactly is the premium coming from ?

Coffee is much cheaper with slavery or ultra heavy exploitation. Once the workers have a say in it, the prices normalize.

Re: Show HN: Searchable directory of 22k+ products from worker-owned co-ops

#70

I wanted to buy from worker-owned cooperatives but there was no single place to see what they actually sell. So I scraped the product catalogs from ~60 worker-owned co-op stores and made them searchable. 22,000+ products: coffee, chocolate, clothing, books, home goods, etc. You search, find something, and click through to buy directly from the co-op's store. Nothing goes through me. There's also a section for finding…

Awesome project, keep doing this!
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