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Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage client for Android

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Re: Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage client for Android

#541

Post by jonhohle »

lxgr wrote: post #367
hedgehog wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple maintains iMessage compatibility with devices that are long out of support, if Beeper Mini is sufficiently similar to the client in for example iOS 12 then it makes an Apple decision to break Beeper fairly expensive. Even if they do the work to publish iMessage updates for the old iOS versions it just buys a little time before the new version gets reverse engineered, and that at the cost of poor user experience…

> Even if they do the work to publish iMessage updates for the old iOS versions it just buys a little time before the new version gets reverse engineered There's probably a cliff in complexity. Once Apple starts requesting signed attestations from the secure enclave on the devices that have one, it's game over. They probably don't just yet, since still too many people use iMessage on first-party clients that don't ha…

There’s also the registration process that could be locked down and/or hardened. There may or may not be additional metadata (including out of band) that could identify first-party clients.

I would think that’s the biggest issue right now. If spammers can register “real” iMessage accounts at scale without Apple hardware, Messages becomes less pleasant, very quickly.

Re: Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage client for Android

#542

Post by collegeburner »

rezonant wrote: post #512
superduty wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is currently not interoperable between the majors mobile OS makers?

Well messaging for one thing... Some others: - Find my device features including Bluetooth ping networking (airtags, Tile, Android's upcoming network) - Airdrop/Nearby Share - Bluetooth LE proximity pairing (at least I doubt this works when pairing cross ecosystem) - Carplay/Android Auto - Airplay/Google Cast

okay but this "interoperability" is legitimately hard without degrading the user experience because apple's unique level of control allows it to produce a superior product with more consistency. airdrop is best-in-class; open-source solutions like wi-fi direct are dumpsterfires with trash UX. LE proximity pairing is, i believe, a custom chip apple put in airpods (h1 chip) because bluetooth is stuck in 2005 and still doesn't have easy pairing, full quality two-way audio, etc. carplay/auto have different feature sets and airplay is an objectively easier experience than google cast.

the EU is fundamentally interested in these changes regardless of consumer welfare. this is sour grapes because they fail at tech by every conceivable metric and by degrading everything to a common feature set and commoditizing certain standards, they hope to give domestic companies a prayer. that it prevents innovation and improvements is merely a secondary concern for the hard-headed anti-Americans in brussels.

Re: Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage client for Android

#543

Post by zamalek »

chatmasta wrote: post #482
stefan_ wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems like a problem. Emulating the protocol is okayish-to-gray but having the binary there will just be a straight DMCA. Wonder what the actual app is doing since this is just the PoC.

I don't think the finer legal points matter too much. If Apple wants to sue them, they'll sue them, regardless of legal merit. And I suspect Beeper is betting they can make their case from a more philosophical angle, such that it's irrelevant what grounds Apple cites when suing them. Beeper will fight it either way. I'm an Apple user who has no need for this app. But I really appreciate that Beeper has the balls to r…

There's also a very small chance that the EU would sit idly by and watch Apple wreck compatibility.

Re: Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage client for Android

#544

Post by JoshTriplett »

ttul wrote: post #408
lxgr wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even if they do the work to publish iMessage updates for the old iOS versions it just buys a little time before the new version gets reverse engineered There's probably a cliff in complexity. Once Apple starts requesting signed attestations from the secure enclave on the devices that have one, it's game over. They probably don't just yet, since still too many people use iMessage on first-party clients that don't ha…

If Apple does start enforcing signed attestations, they will say that it's to reduce abuse. I have no doubt (being in the anti-abuse world) that spammers and phishing gangs will immediately begin using Beeper to spam iMessage users because this allows them to avoid buying an iOS device. With end-to-end encryption, Apple may also decide to roll out privacy-protecting client-side spam and phishing detection, which woul…

> With end-to-end encryption, Apple may also decide to roll out privacy-protecting client-side spam and phishing detection, which would IMHO be a really great thing.

Spam protection should be on the recipient, rather than the sender.

Re: Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage client for Android

#545

Post by Domenic_S »

dylan604 wrote: post #516
chatmasta wrote: post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the finer legal points matter too much. If Apple wants to sue them, they'll sue them, regardless of legal merit. And I suspect Beeper is betting they can make their case from a more philosophical angle, such that it's irrelevant what grounds Apple cites when suing them. Beeper will fight it either way. I'm an Apple user who has no need for this app. But I really appreciate that Beeper has the balls to r…

>Beeper will fight it either way. That sounds nice and all, but what happens when the first bill comes due from their legal team?

I have a hard time believing that the folks who were smart enough to do all this work somehow forgot that lawyers cost money

Re: Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage client for Android

#547

Post by chatmasta »

dylan604 wrote: post #516
chatmasta wrote: post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the finer legal points matter too much. If Apple wants to sue them, they'll sue them, regardless of legal merit. And I suspect Beeper is betting they can make their case from a more philosophical angle, such that it's irrelevant what grounds Apple cites when suing them. Beeper will fight it either way. I'm an Apple user who has no need for this app. But I really appreciate that Beeper has the balls to r…

>Beeper will fight it either way. That sounds nice and all, but what happens when the first bill comes due from their legal team?

I imagine they'd use some of the $16m+ they raised in VC money to pay the lawyers...

Re: Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage client for Android

#548

Post by chatmasta »

altintx wrote: post #532
chatmasta wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, how does this work? Is it using Handoff and sending from your phone, or Beeper is just a GUI and you've extracted a token from your personal phone to use with Beeper on your work device? Btw, this is mostly unrelated, but do you work for a large company? I'd assume most security teams would have a problem with a setup like this.

Neither. Their cloud server is a farm of Mac Minis or similar. Then Beeper Cloud is basically a proxy from the app to that data center.

Ah I see. I thought I remembered reading about that on Twitter (in the context of people criticizing it as false advertising). So basically this Beeper mini is the "proper" implementation of full e2e encryption, while the cloud service was the bridge to get them here?

Re: Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage client for Android

#549

Post by SllX »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #534
a_carbon_rod wrote: post #526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can, by right clicking the desired message to edit. This is in macOS Sonoma, and I believe was a part of Ventura as well.

Oh interesting, I have a 2015 MacBook Air. Wonder if the feature is not available on whatever macOS version I have.

It’s a Ventura and later feature and your MacBook Air probably topped out around Monterey or earlier. 2016 MacBooks Pro also didn’t make the cut for Ventura.

Re: Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage client for Android

#550

Post by Domenic_S »

brokencode wrote: post #536
dylan604 wrote: post #516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Beeper will fight it either way. That sounds nice and all, but what happens when the first bill comes due from their legal team?

I’d donate to a legal fund on this personally. I think a lot of people and large corporations would like to see Apple have to make concessions here. I think if it comes to it, Apple will wind up looking very bad in a trial. Their behavior here is deeply anticompetitive. iMessage is just too important to modern text communication to be as locked down as it is. If Apple doesn’t want to make an Android app, they should…

> iMessage is just too important to modern text communication to be as locked down as it is.

What do you mean; if a private company creates something, and enough people buy/use it, at some point it becomes a common good? I like the idea of iMessage being open, but I don't like the idea of forcing Apple under government threat to open it

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