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Show HN: SVG 3D Builder – Build 3D Models with SVG

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Re: Show HN: SVG 3D Builder – Build 3D Models with SVG

#41

Post by viraptor »

xigma wrote: post #25
lucideer wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> WebGL doesn't have very good support, especially on mobile. That's why one would choose to use SVG. This statement isn't even vaguely true. SVG support is quite incomplete and inconsistent across all browsers (both desktop and mobile), while Webgl has been comparatively well supported on mobile for many years (Android 4.4 lacked support; Android 9 is now out). The only issues you might have with most common webgl a…

Another opinion from someone who presumably looks at "browser support" tables and green checkmarks and forms an opinion that way. How much actual WebGL vs. SVG development have you done? How many devices have you tested?

This applies to a few of your comments, but: you're not telling us anything interesting, you're just antagonistic. GP's experience is not really relevant here. If you think you have more experience, tell us about your opinions and how your justify them. Knee-jerk disagreeing and suspecting everyone to have less experience than you will just get you downvoted everywhere.

Re: Show HN: SVG 3D Builder – Build 3D Models with SVG

#42

Post by mr_overalls »

xigma wrote: post #34
kowdermeister wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I should have said developed as well (I thought that implies it), but your head is too deeply buried in the sand to maintain a conversation. I did use many graphics libraries before, thanks, they are fine.

I have no idea what exactly you did, but I can't fathom how you would form such opinions from hands-on experience with both technologies. You say things like "just export to HTML5 from Adobe Animate/Flash", but if you had actually used that, you would probably tell people to stay away from it, or at least acknowledge the caveats.

I'm not a big fan of Flash, either, but you should probably chill out with the abrasive and sneering tone. (which is why I imagine you're being downvoted) If you'd like to conduct discussions like this, maybe Reddit is a better choice.

Re: Show HN: SVG 3D Builder – Build 3D Models with SVG

#43

Post by roywiggins »

xigma wrote: post #32
kowdermeister wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www.adultswim.com/etcetera/elastic-man/ 619KB in total, 362KB wasm binary Edit: Three.js is such a library with qualities you described: https://threejs.org/examples/#webgl_postprocessing_dof

That's not a library, that's a demo and it takes several seconds to load, just like a flash applet would. I'm aware of minimalist things that can put stuff on-screen instantly, but not of something that's a fleshed out solution like SVG or Canvas that still loads instantly (like SVG or Canvas). Edit: I'm sorry, my brain was still in 2d/Canvas/SVG/Flash land, you were talking about 3D stuff all along. You're right thr…

The haxe ecosystem is pretty great.

http://haxeflixel.com/demos/

Re: Show HN: SVG 3D Builder – Build 3D Models with SVG

#44

Post by specialist »

accnumnplus1 wrote: post #35

I'm reminded of vrml. That was in the 90s. Back then I expected more by now.

We did get more. And less. Many of the innovations of VRML-97 have been forgotten, ready to be rediscovered. But progress on other fronts has been amazing.

Mostly the notion of treating your entire app as a simulation, just like games do. VRML-97's event loop, warts and all, made things a lot easier.

VRML-97 also had a true prototype/instance class system, way more like David Unger's Self language than what we have today. (Ironically, JavaScript is moving away from prototypes and more towards classes each iteration. Too bad.)

Scene graphs, of course. Really just a DSL for describing object graphs. Very succinct & powerful.

A few things deflected VRML-97.

Sun placed their bets on Java3D and ignored OpenGL. In addition to scene graphs, Java3D had the notion of live (active) objects, sending messages to each other. It was the 90s, people still bought into OO. It was an idea worth exploring that didn't pan out. No shame in trying.

The bigger mistake was the VRML steering committee went all in for XML and switched to Web3D. Completely stopped all the hard earned momentum. Classic example of Joel Spolsky's "Don't Rewrite" rule. This idea was not worth exploring.

Source: Implemented VRML-97 browser, wrote some games and authoring tools, coauthored the original JavaGL bindings with "Alligator Descartes", lobbied Sun & SGI for years to drop Java3D and promote JavaGL (which they eventually did, but too late).

Re: Show HN: SVG 3D Builder – Build 3D Models with SVG

#45

Post by colordrops »

goatlover wrote: post #15
kowdermeister wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's slow because it's abusing what SVG can deliver. It's only a good warning in regards to avoid using the wrong tool for the job. If you want want 3D in the browser, then go WebGL. > It's really a sad story that HTML5 has been evangelized so strongly, yet even ten years later it can't hold a candle to Flash in many regards. Not sad at all. It needs to be evangelized more since it's clear that other solutions did no…

Java was open source and Sun wanted Netscape to embed Java in their browser. According to Brendan Eich, Netscape considered having both JS and Java along with a canvas element both could draw on, but time constraints dictated otherwise. So Java ended up being used as a plugin.

Was java ever truly free though? Oracle's shenanigans indicate otherwise.

Re: Show HN: SVG 3D Builder – Build 3D Models with SVG

#46

Post by artursapek »

xigma wrote: post #2

It's unbelievably slow. I'm confident it's not the developer's fault. It serves as a good warning. It just goes to show that Web technology still has a long way to go. SVG (and to a lesser extent Canvas) are trainwrecks in terms of performance. It's really a sad story that HTML5 has been evangelized so strongly, yet even ten years later it can't hold a candle to Flash in many regards.

How is canvas a "trainwreck" in performance? I've used it extensively and have found it a very well performing framework.

https://cryptowat.ch/markets/kraken/btc/eur

https://ballpoint.io/files/examples/starbucks

Re: Show HN: SVG 3D Builder – Build 3D Models with SVG

#47

Post by stuaxo »

goatlover wrote: post #15
kowdermeister wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's slow because it's abusing what SVG can deliver. It's only a good warning in regards to avoid using the wrong tool for the job. If you want want 3D in the browser, then go WebGL. > It's really a sad story that HTML5 has been evangelized so strongly, yet even ten years later it can't hold a candle to Flash in many regards. Not sad at all. It needs to be evangelized more since it's clear that other solutions did no…

Java was open source and Sun wanted Netscape to embed Java in their browser. According to Brendan Eich, Netscape considered having both JS and Java along with a canvas element both could draw on, but time constraints dictated otherwise. So Java ended up being used as a plugin.

Wow, this really would have been a different past - similarly if flash had been able to draw into elements in the dom properly.

Re: Show HN: SVG 3D Builder – Build 3D Models with SVG

#48

Post by j45 »

kowdermeister wrote: post #38
j45 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with some of this but I get the sense you may not have been around for flash and may be just echo chambering popular commentary without context or first hand experience: 1) The HTML spec at the time flash rose could do nothing of what it could today. Flash, applets delivered - relatively speaking. They didn't 100% hit the one code base that works the same everywhere promise, but came close. Maybe webassembly…

I don't disagree with any of your points, these do provide the necessary insight of the two platforms. I was around when flash became a big thing, though never really developed in it deeply. IE3-4 was probably nightmare to work with :) > The dangerous thing about saying html has successfully replaced the past is, we're doomed to repeat the past if we don't understand it due to hubris. I feel we will repeat some of th…

Webassembly is the first tech I can think of that all browsers have unanimously agreed on and co-created.

The same can't be said for the design, interpretation or implementation of the html spec.

Open standards can also fall to paralysis of design by committee. Still, open is good (AV1 is also cause for optimism).

When open standards aren't possible or happening, innovation is undertaken by private companies.

Re: Show HN: SVG 3D Builder – Build 3D Models with SVG

#49

Post by microcolonel »

colordrops wrote: post #45
goatlover wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Java was open source and Sun wanted Netscape to embed Java in their browser. According to Brendan Eich, Netscape considered having both JS and Java along with a canvas element both could draw on, but time constraints dictated otherwise. So Java ended up being used as a plugin.

Was java ever truly free though? Oracle's shenanigans indicate otherwise.

> Was java ever truly free though? Oracle's shenanigans indicate otherwise.

It probably could have been, pre-Oracle.

Re: Show HN: SVG 3D Builder – Build 3D Models with SVG

#50

Post by microcolonel »

xigma wrote: post #12
onion2k wrote: post #7

three.js has an SVG renderer that does a decent job - https://threejs.org/examples/#svg_sandbox

Dude, this is the kind of stuff I could run in realtime on an Amiga. Maybe not at the same resolution, but the resolution isn't the bottleneck in this demo either, I'm struggling to hit 40Hz at any scale.

On the Amiga, you didn't go the stupid way around and represent your object as a series of text path strings which need to be parsed into objects and then finally displayed for each frame.

You can get your Amiga performance with canvas; and you can get way better with WebGL. This is just a case of wrong-tool-for-wrong-job.

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