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Show HN: Client not paid? Add opacity to the body

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Re: Show HN: Client not paid? Add opacity to the body

#41

Post by dogma1138 »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #29
dogma1138 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is actually illegal, public shaming would be protected speech if you do it via a proper platform, destroying or tampering with a property which does not belong to you is a criminal offense. Additionally depending on what country you are in this can also be a an offense according to various computer crime laws which means you are not only risking a committing a felony but also being unable to work if the law wher…

If you word the contract correctly, the property does still belong to you. You can do what you like with it, especially if you make it clear in the contract there are escalating penalties and sanctions for late or non-payment. Honestly, the idea that you're supposed to just shrug and say "Okay, fine I guess" is a self-defeating unprofessional attitude. Clients are not doing you a favour by allowing you to work them.…

Contracts can't violate laws, even if you own the website if it's on some one else's server this is felony trespassing + w/e computer crime law you've violated.

Re: Show HN: Client not paid? Add opacity to the body

#42

Post by dogma1138 »

mickronome wrote: post #33
dogma1138 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is actually illegal, public shaming would be protected speech if you do it via a proper platform, destroying or tampering with a property which does not belong to you is a criminal offense. Additionally depending on what country you are in this can also be a an offense according to various computer crime laws which means you are not only risking a committing a felony but also being unable to work if the law wher…

Depending on contract and jurisdiction, it might not at all be the clients property until fully paid, and it could be completely legal in some places. I know there are plenty of contracts (backed by law AFAIK) where complete ownership and all rights stays with the contractor until paid according to contract. However it would probably be hard to argue that you've actually made the final delivery, as you have to do ano…

Yes, but what makes it complicated is where it is hosted, if it's hosted on a remote server you do not own you've committed trespassing and computer crime by accessing the network and server.

In fact you have to be the sole owner of everything in that chain for this to be considered even remotely legal, this includes things like the domain and certificate. And even then it's not that simple since legal ownership isn't the only thing that plays a factor here since the client can claim beneficial ownership which grants them certain rights.

Re: Show HN: Client not paid? Add opacity to the body

#43

Post by dogma1138 »

k__ wrote: post #39
dogma1138 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't take claim of the IP/copyright no business/client would also sign that contract. You can claim ownership of the work until the payment is cleared but this is also tricky. If the website is hosted on the property of the client tampering with it will constitute a violation of most computer crime/misuse acts even if you hold valid credentials to access it. The best thing to do is if you also operate the websit…

What's so tricky about writing in a contract, that you the owner ship will automatically given to the client after the payment? I mean, who would say into your face that they don't want to pay you for your work? (what not signing such a contract actually implies)

Ownership of what? the website? fine, it's yours, but it's hosted on a server you don't own and you take it away it's a crime.

If i steal your TV and you break into my house to take it back you've committed a felony.

Or a better example if you've sent me a TV and I didn't pay you you can't break into my house to claim it back even if the contract we signed states that it is yours until paid in full. This is why a bank needs to get an order to repossess your car or house they can't just take it away even if it's leveraged, we have laws.

Re: Show HN: Client not paid? Add opacity to the body

#44

Post by Retric »

dogma1138 wrote: post #41
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you word the contract correctly, the property does still belong to you. You can do what you like with it, especially if you make it clear in the contract there are escalating penalties and sanctions for late or non-payment. Honestly, the idea that you're supposed to just shrug and say "Okay, fine I guess" is a self-defeating unprofessional attitude. Clients are not doing you a favour by allowing you to work them.…

Contracts can't violate laws, even if you own the website if it's on some one else's server this is felony trespassing + w/e computer crime law you've violated.

Your making several assumptions. DRM is well protected in the law so having a site that stops working without payment is one option. Further you don't need server access you can do a DMCA takedown if they have not paid you as they are hosting content that they don't own.

Just look at all the hosting companies which redirect to a page when you stop payment.

Re: Show HN: Client not paid? Add opacity to the body

#45

Post by gregjor »

dogma1138 wrote: post #41
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you word the contract correctly, the property does still belong to you. You can do what you like with it, especially if you make it clear in the contract there are escalating penalties and sanctions for late or non-payment. Honestly, the idea that you're supposed to just shrug and say "Okay, fine I guess" is a self-defeating unprofessional attitude. Clients are not doing you a favour by allowing you to work them.…

Contracts can't violate laws, even if you own the website if it's on some one else's server this is felony trespassing + w/e computer crime law you've violated.

This is an important point some people commenting here don't get. You can write whatever contract you like, but provisions of a contract that violate or attempt to nullify the law are void on their face. And having a contract does not mean you can break other laws to enforce the contract or remedy a breach. Acting in bad faith, like planting a time bomb in the code, is likely to void the entire contract.

Re: Show HN: Client not paid? Add opacity to the body

#46

Post by dogma1138 »

Retric wrote: post #44
dogma1138 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contracts can't violate laws, even if you own the website if it's on some one else's server this is felony trespassing + w/e computer crime law you've violated.

Your making several assumptions. DRM is well protected in the law so having a site that stops working without payment is one option. Further you don't need server access you can do a DMCA takedown if they have not paid you as they are hosting content that they don't own. Just look at all the hosting companies which redirect to a page when you stop payment.

DRM is protected by it's own laws which usually do not involve transfer of ownership. When you buy a movie you do not receive ownerships of the movie.

A hosting company has a clause in the contract which states they can terminate service after X days if a payment hasn't been cleared, this isn't the same thing unless you make the contract a service contract in which case you can terminate the service.

No one would sign a contract that says that they get some one time restricted license of the website or w/e they paid to you make which can be revoked because you hold the ownership.

Re: Show HN: Client not paid? Add opacity to the body

#47

Post by gregjor »

dogma1138 wrote: post #41
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you word the contract correctly, the property does still belong to you. You can do what you like with it, especially if you make it clear in the contract there are escalating penalties and sanctions for late or non-payment. Honestly, the idea that you're supposed to just shrug and say "Okay, fine I guess" is a self-defeating unprofessional attitude. Clients are not doing you a favour by allowing you to work them.…

Contracts can't violate laws, even if you own the website if it's on some one else's server this is felony trespassing + w/e computer crime law you've violated.

To use DRM you have to own the content, and you have to disclose the DRM protections in advance. Contract development is usually covered as work for hire in the US, and the client paying for the work owns it by default. I'd be surprised if the client agreed in advance to the contractor owning the content, or to DRM.

Re: Show HN: Client not paid? Add opacity to the body

#48

Post by edanm »

abz10 wrote: post #20
edanm wrote: post #11

Anyone who would even think of doing this is: 1. Extremely unprofessional. 2. Is not taking on the right clients.

or... 3. lives in the real world where there are seas of gray Being picky about clients and being able to afford to sue those who don't pay is one of my many privileges. Not everyone can afford to do this.

This has nothing to do with suing clients. Taking some kind of revenge, in a way that's almost certainly actionable, is not really in a gray area - I don't think there is any situation in which it makes sense to do this.

As for "being picky about clients", my second point above is indeed aspirational, and I'm sure not everyone can afford to choose their clients. That's my point. You need to realize, as quickly as you can, that you're better off moving to the kinds of clients that don't have these issues.

I say this because many people honestly don't understand or believe that better clients exist, or at least don't internalize just how different it is to work for clients for whom these kinds of shenanigans are irrelevant. It really is a different world.

Re: Show HN: Client not paid? Add opacity to the body

#49

Post by andreapaiola »

whafro wrote: post #28
dietrichepp wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Add opacity" -> opacity is an attribute, which is added to the body.

The body element already has an opacity attribute, defaulted to 1. This explicitly defines it, initially, and decreases it over time.

fade.php or fade.js add the CSS opacity to the

see the examples

Re: Show HN: Client not paid? Add opacity to the body

#50

Post by Retric »

dogma1138 wrote: post #46
Retric wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your making several assumptions. DRM is well protected in the law so having a site that stops working without payment is one option. Further you don't need server access you can do a DMCA takedown if they have not paid you as they are hosting content that they don't own. Just look at all the hosting companies which redirect to a page when you stop payment.

DRM is protected by it's own laws which usually do not involve transfer of ownership. When you buy a movie you do not receive ownerships of the movie. A hosting company has a clause in the contract which states they can terminate service after X days if a payment hasn't been cleared, this isn't the same thing unless you make the contract a service contract in which case you can terminate the service. No one would sig…

Remember the basis of contact law is X for Y and you don't do X you don't get Y. Things can get complex when there is initial work paid for and follow on work, but there are plenty of examples out there to work from. Also, if they have not paid in FULL, then they are in breach of contact and thus own nothing.

You can't pay off 98% of a mortgage and call it enough, they own the house until they receive the final payment. (Second mortgages are a little different.)

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